legacycentral bbs

Another difference with the quad cam motor is that it's infinitely more of a pain in the A$$ when it comes to maintenance.

With that being said, my 98 2.5GT with 105k miles has sprung a nasty leak from somewhere under the timing belt cover, so you know what that means. If you guys can convince me that doing the job on a quad cam *interference* engine is nearly as "easy" as my 2.2T motor which I've done a couple times, I'll be going in and replacing all the cam and crank seals, checking the oil pump for leakage (not sure if this is still a problem with these motors??) replacing the water pump and all the belts, etc. I know I can do the job and taking it to the dealer to have all this done will cost a small fortune, so I'm inclined to do it myself, but the fact that it's an interference motor with twice as many sprockets to line up, I'm intimidated by it. Should I be? Will the four cams be good and sit still while I remove the belts and sprockets like they do on my 2.2T or will they spin and require me to call a tow truck to take us to the dealer with my tail between my legs? Should I bother replacing the cam seals since they're not leaking? Normally, I would, but being a quad cam, it's twice as much $ and work. How often do these leak? Anyone? Anyone?

I would appreciate y'alls thoughts on this. I'm fresh out.

Thanks,

Dave

PS - FWIW, the T-belt and crank seal was replaced on this car under warranty at 59k miles. That seal really shouldn't be leaking, but I suspect that's the culprit.

Dave

I might be inheriting such a beast over the coming days, and have been asking myself the same question.

However, I have looked in the haynes manual at pictures of the 2.5l cam sprockets, and each has a hex on them to hold them still while loosening the retaining bolt.

I think this should prevent accidental valve contact.

HTH, Dave

Nice. Yeah, that would definitely be handy. I like to hear that. I haven't even made it to my Haynes manual yet.

Thanks,

Dave

Did you end up doing the 2.5L DOHC timing belt?

I need to do my wagon ASAP since the leak is getting really bad and I just realized that the timing belt that I had thought was replaced at 59k apparently was not so now it's overdue.

I have done my SOHC 2.2T belts a couple times, but never a DOHC. Josh supplied me with a nice scan of the factory manuals for that car, but all I have for the DOHC is my Haynes book and it's, of course, lacking. Seems to be straightforward enough though and I just have to be more careful than with the SOHC, but my big question now is whether or not I really have to set cylinder 1 to TDC. That's a pain in the a$$ that I would rather not deal with and I'm thinking it's probably not necessary. Anyone? Anyone?

Thanks,

Dave

Dave,

There was some talk on nasioc recently about getting a cam pulley locking tool. That'd be the way to go. Get that tool, so the cams don't move and you can do the tbelt with out worrying.

So where would I find such a beast? Or... four of them? Sounds like something that could double the cost of my t-belt job.

Thanks,

Dave

I tried searchin nabisco....got a pm in to someone to ask where the thread is.

Cool. Thanks.

Meanwhile, I have found this- http://www.ravensblade-impreza.com/modi ... ltwrx.html
Which is helpful. It's not exactly my motor, but close enough to be worthwhile.

Dave

Dave,

Sorry for the slow response, I did not get the 2.5, and have not been around for a while.

The 'clean' car I went to see had had a smashed up front end, a bad motor mount (at least), the CEL was on, and the interior ripped up, and half replaced.

I am working on a Dodge Neon at present which has a crank pulley made in hell . Its also inteference but SOHC.

Let us know how it goes with the 2.5l!

Dave

Sorry to hear about the car, Dave. Good luck with the Neon. I'll keep you posted on the 2.5.

Josh,

I wasn't thinking last night. I'm planning on replacing the cam seals, so since I have to remove the sprockets, that tool wouldn't help too much, UNLESS, I can get a good feel that these cam seals rarely leak and I can skip that part, which I would really like to do. I know none of mine have ever leaked, the ones on this 2.5 don't appear to be leaking and everything I have ever read on this board suggests that nobody has ever opened up the covers to find leaking cam seals.

Has anyone here ever had their cam seals leak???

Thanks,

Dave

Yep. One of the things I ignored on my Legacy when I did my T-belt. I plan on going back in sometime soon, replacing those, and also rebuilding/resealing the oil pump.

Sorry I didn't see this thread before. Yes, cam seals leaking are a very common issue on the DOHC 2.5's. Not being under the cover to see what is going on, I can tell you the likely culprits.
1. Main crank seal
2. Oil pump
3. cam seals

What you have described sound like #1. But with the mileage on your engine, definitely replace the oil pump while it is apart. I know of four engines in the last six months with +/-100k mi that threw rods or spun bearings because the oil pump went south.

Do the cam seals while it is apart or you will need to do them in the next 20k mi. Lastly, do the rear main bearing seal as well, if you pull the engine to do the work. That is the other seal that is notorious for going on the older EJ25's.

As for the "tool" to lock the cams? I can get you a Subaru part number if you want. Then you can buy one from the dealer. But you can also likely get a "generic" one from Pepboys or Kragen...

Thanks a lot for the info. That leaves me with many more questions now though.

I originally suspected the typical crank seal failure, but that was replaced at 59k and now it's leaking SO BAD that I'm thinking it might be the oil pump/seals instead. That was another question I had since I wasn't sure if that was an issue that was resolved in the gen 2 Legacies. I guess not. So I should replace the pump? Ok. Is there a gasket with that or do I use my trusty Loctite gasket eliminator? Once I pull the crank pulley, it's right there and easy to get to, right? Should I put loctite on the bolt threads to ensure that they won't back out?

I guess I'll be replacing the cam seals too. Good to know.

Then there's a junk rear main seal too? Holy crap. That's quite possibly leaking too. It smokes a helluva lot back there at the Y-pipe, but I suspected it was blowback from the front seal. I know at least some of it is. I'm not removing the motor. It'll probably need a clutch soon though, so I guess that could be addressed then if it is a problem.

I didn't realize there were so many issues with these EJ25s. I really want to buy the new '05 Legacy GT in the near future, but this sort of thing makes me think twice about it. I'm sick of these leaking #%*ing pancake motors (all of my cars have them and they all leak).

So I would need four of these 'tools', one for each cam, right? I take it, it attaches to the sprocket somehow and braces against the head? And, again, if I'm replacing the cam seals and removing the sprockets anyway, is it really worth it? Also, can you answer the 'cyl 1 TDC' question? Is it really necessary to set that before doing the job? I'm kind of hung up on that before I can order parts. This is just about to reach the 'too much of a PITA to mess with' threshold for me and that might just push it over the edge, mainly since I don't have a compression tester and don't want to go buy one.

Thanks,

Dave

Ok,
1. Stop and take a breath.
2. Many of these "seal" issues are not catastrophic and can be left for a while. Personally, I don't consider these things occuring at 100k mi as "low mileage' issues. But the nitty gritty question is how much oil are you losing?

I just had a ton of engine work done and a new oil pump installed. I now have the main seal leak and possible a cam seal leak on my block. But I am "only" losing 1 qt every 3000mi. As such, I am going to replace the shortblock in it's entirety in the next six months and just limp along.

Your case is different because you haven't done the oil pump yet. You might seriously consider getting a used low mileage long block and throwing it in there. They can often be found on NASIOC for $500-600 with 50-60k mi on them. That would only be a couple of hundred $$$ more than you are gonna spend to do this yourself when you figure the cost of the new oil pump and all the seals. I am adamant about OEM parts, so if you come back to me and tell me you can get an aftermarket oil pump for $100, I will just laugh and tell you that you get what you pay for.

Back on track. Assuming you get the oil pump and seals and do this work: There is a seal for the oil pump. Loctite most likely won't make a difference. If it is done right and to spec, it won't come loose.

From what I remember from the FSM, there is an order you following in setting up the timing belt from piston to piston. IIRC, you only need to "lock" the one that you are installing next, and don't need 4 tools. I will need to re-read this and get you more detail if one of our more experienced members doesn't pop in and explain. But having had my EJ20 apart recently, I can tell you that all of the alignment marks are VERY clear. Making sure that everything is in order and where it should be is pretty straightforward.

Ok, taking deep breaths... and Valium. It's all going to be ok.

Back when Subarus were built right, 100k *was* a low mileage issue.

How much oil am I losing? A lot. It started out several months back dripping a little and smoking after being driven, but I wasn't losing noticeable amounts of oil. Now it's dripping a lot, smoking like a chimney and I can't keep oil in it. A couple weeks ago I added a half quart which brought it just above the 'L' line, just as I did a couple weeks before. Last night I added two quarts (all that I had) and barely got it back to that level. That's why I'm suddenly a lot more concerned.

I'm not replacing the engine. The fact is, I really don't like this POS car anymore. I would like to replace it, but my 92 turbo is starting to get cancer and will likely need to be replaced first -with a new '05 GT Limited which means I'll have to live with this POS wagon for a few more years. I can't afford two GT Limited's right now. Hell, to be honest, I can't afford one, but now I'm stuck on that damn car after driving it.

I shy away from most aftermarket parts too, so the thought of an aftermarket oil pump had not even crossed my mind until you mentioned it... until you made the $100 comment anyway. How much does an OEM oil pump cost anyway?? The car is getting to be closer and closer to a trade-in.

Is the oil pump seal that same O-ring as the earlier ones? I've seen all over this board where people recommend using some gasket eliminator there. And I'm assuming that the factory installed the oil pumps 'right and on spec' from the start, but they seem to always have issues with the bolts backing out. At least I remember that being a common problem on gen 1 SOHC motors.

I have the FSM scans from your 2.0 DOHC motor and both that and the Haynes book show the sprocket order for installing the belt, but I'm curious, if the belt is off all five sprockets, and the sprockets are off the camshaft for that matter, before you put the new one on, what good does the tool do? I mean, don't you just turn and line up the sprockets as you install the belt like I've done on my SOHC motor? I'm just not quite getting the value of that tool.

Anyone got an answer for the Cyl 1 TDC question??

Thanks,

Dave

Damn,
That's a lot of oil. And I wasn't aware of the gasket issue. Now you have scared me that my brand new oil pump may be the issue on my car and that the bolts have backed out. ACK. Where's the valium. lol

Give me a day and I will get back to you on the cam and tdc questions. I don't have internet at home these days and that's where my manuals are. I'll post back manana...

Sorry, didn't mean to freak ya out. Yeah, I've read alot over the years about those oil pumps loosening up and causing problems. The one on my '92 with 165k has never leaked (knock on wood) so I haven't touched it when I've gone in there. I figure if it's staying tight this long, it's not going anywhere. Actually, I did put a socket on it last time and checked the torque, then wished I hadn't done that, thinking that I might have just broke it loose.

Thanks for checking into that stuff for me. I'm still waiting to hear back from Liberty Subaru on the cost of the oil pump. I'm still a little freaked out about that after your $100 aftermarket part comment. So I guess we're even

Thanks,

Dave

here's pic of a cam sprocket holder

http://www.drivewerks.com/catalog/image ... -36880.jpg

I would assume you can get it from driveworks since the pic is from them.

That's supposed to hold my cam sprocket? I think I could rig something just as good if not better, BUT I still have no idea why/how that would be any benefit to me since I'm yanking all the sprockets anyway.

With regards to the oil pump seal, I just got this from subaruparts.com:

" The oil pump uses the oring and silicone."

O-ring is $2 and the sealant is $20. Heh. I'm really starting to hate this car... and Subaru for that matter.

/drunk and disgusted

you can use permatex ultra gray

here's a comparable sealant list

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com:8 ... alants.gif

Yeah, I already have a copy of that tucked into my Haynes book. Thanks. I was just drinking and ranting last night.

Btw, Russ at Liberty Subaru is supposed to be faxing me the relevant pages of the FSM. Liberty Subaru rules.

Thanks,

Dave

I looked this up last night, and you don't need to lock all four, you just need to be meticulous in paying attention to the marks. As for the TDC thing? The key is in the disassembly. You need to make sure that the marks for the crank and all four cams are in alignment before you take it apart. They make it pretty idiot proof with hash marks all over the place. The only trick is if any of them have worn, but in my limited experience, I haven't seen any of them worn. And since you are putting on a new belt, you don't need to fuss with the whole marking of the timing belt step...

You will need a special wrench for pulling the cam pulleys. The Subaru PN will be listed on those FSM scans Russ is sending you. I am pretty sure that once you see the FSM, your fears will dissolve. If you have any problems getting the FSM, shoot me a PM and I can print copies and mail them to you myself...

Right on. Thanks!

Yeah, doing this before on a SOHC EJ22T and from the documents I have seen, I'm not worried about lining up the marks. I was just more concerned about what might happen if it needed to be TDC and wasn't. I never worried about TDC on the other motor, but the Haynes manual suggests setting TDC on this one. As long as I can keep those cams in check while the belts are loose and I'm pulling the pulleys, etc., I should be ok. That's easy enough if you pay attention.

So I need a puller to get those pulleys off? I know these later ones have surfaces that I can get a wrench on while I'm breaking the bolt loose, so I figured that would be easier than whatever I had to do on my old SOHC, but I thought those just popped right off after I removed the fastener. Hmm. I look at the FSMs and see what's up with that. I'm still waiting for them, but I know Russ is busy.

Thanks,

Dave

I got the FSM for the T-belt job. No need for TDC. Remove the covers, turn the crank until all marks line up. Pull the idlers, tensioner, etc., then the belt. All four cams will rest at 'zero-lift' position, where all cams do not push the intake and exhaust valves down (under this condition, all valves remain unlifted). This means the left-hand cams should turn a little when the belt's pulled.

When camshafts are rotated to install timing belts, #2 intake and #4 exhaust cam of the left-hand camshafts are held to push their corresponding valves down (under this condition, these valves are held lifted). Right-side camshafts are held so that their cams do not push valves down).

Left-hand camshafts must be rotated from the 'zero-lift' position to the position where the timing belt is to be installed at as small an angle as possible, in order to prevent mutual interference of intake and exhaust valve heads.

Then the FSM goes on to instruct not to allow the camshafts to rotate in the direction in the figure. The upper left (intake) cam must turn clockwise and the bottom left (exhaust) cam must turn counter-clockwise or else the both the intake and exhaust valves will lift simultaneously and become intimate with each other.

That's it for the tricky part on the DOHC motors. The FSM does not suggest using a tool to pull the cam sprockets, but it does show the camshaft sprocket wrench (which, btw, Josh, I understand now) that is used to lock the intake and exhaust cams together when you have to remove/tighten there fastener bolts. That makes sense now and I can also see how this would be handy to hold the cams in place so you could skip most of the above during the reinstallation (if you were not removing the sprockets as part of the job).

This stuff is cake

I ordered all the parts from Liberty and tentitavely plan on doing the job next weekend. I'll let y'all know how it goes.

Thanks,

Dave

I guess I need to update my signature

I may be selling my 92 Turbo Legacy in case y'all know of anyone that's looking. 165k, silver, WRX wheels w/ awesome Nokian tires, very well maintained, good condition.