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i wanted to start new thread bout this rather than hi-jack the mod thread in misc.

do these lamps need to be behind a lens or can they be exposed to the air?

these are the lights im talking about. as pointed out by vrg3:

http://www.rallylights.com/hella/90mm_modules.asp



in other words i want to make my own "morette" type kit for the 94 SS.

my idea was to make custom mounting brackets and cut two holes for the lamps to poke out of the oem lens and paint it black. i dont think it would be too hard. anyone have some tips? right now this is totaly theoretical as i have no money. but i love planning things out.

I was considering doing the same thing on my 91SS. Planned on having a local guy fabricate some carbon fiber housings. Once I started to add up all the components, it just got too expensive. I'll try to get the euro headlights instead.

I think the Hella modules can be exposed to weather. You should talk to Dave at rallylights.com about them. He is very helpful.

With a relay and wiring harness upgrade, the Hella modules will provide very good lighting. The low beam projectors have really great pattern with razor sharp cutoff. Should be very nice. Good luck.

They are fully protected from the elements and don't need any protection beyond the lenses and magnesium housings they come in from the factory.

I have tried to fit these lights into 92-94 headlamp housings, and it will definitely require modification of the housings; the lights are a little taller than the space normally taken up by the reflector.

I think you only need to get three of the four mounting screws/aimers in.

I agree that it shouldn't be too hard. You just have to want to do it.

Steve there is no such thing as automotive lighting being too expensive.

Well, it is when it's dollar per lumen. Ask vikash, he'll tell ya allllll about the blue light specials. hehe. (pun intended)

THAWA wrote:Steve there is no such thing as automotive lighting being too expensive.

Maybe for your budget.

Using the Hellas would add up to close to $300 without even considering the cost of the housings. What will custom fiberglass or carbon fiber housings cost- at least $100 each?

If I can get the glass lens euro headlights for a reasonable price, I'd rather do that. If not, I'll probably live with the existing lights. Polish off the oxidation, install relays and better wire, and be done with it.

I'm using JY housings for my project - $30 ea. The housings can be modified with some fiberglass. My plan is to keep the top and bottom part of the reflector to use as a frame to secure the fiberglass I'll add to it. Getting the angle of the head light mounting wall symetrical shouldn't be too bad as there are lots of reference points on the housing to use.

Steve

Using the Hellas would add up to close to $300 without even considering the cost of the housings.

How did you come up with that figure?

Buying the DOT 90mm lights from Susquehanna Motorsports only costs $216 plus shipping. And right now they're actually running a 10% off sale for the holidays, bringing it down below $200.

Sure, you'll have to also buy electrical stuff like wire, relays, and connectors, but for good performance you have to do that no matter what headlights you have.

If I can get the glass lens euro headlights for a reasonable price, I'd rather do that.

Fair enough -- it'd certainly be a lot easier and attract a lot less attention. But these Hellas will outperform the stock European headlights handily.

If not, I'll probably live with the existing lights. Polish off the oxidation, install relays and better wire, and be done with it.

They'll still suck. They'll just suck a little more brightly .

But it's your life, and NHTSA says that your lights are okay, so...

vrg3 wrote:
How did you come up with that figure?

Like you said... over $200 for the Hellas (I did not know about the 10% sale), plus connectors, mounting plates, and a relay kit from Daniel Stern. Close to $300. Dont forget shipping. How do YOU add it up and not come close top $300. Not to mention a huge amount of time to fabricate and install.

Fair enough -- it'd certainly be a lot easier and attract a lot less attention. But these Hellas will outperform the stock European headlights handily..

A stock Porsche will outperform my car, but that doesn't mean I'm going to justify buying one.

Everyone getting involved in the European glass headlight deal should forget it and go Hella modulars? No wait... anyone with a 89-91 Legacy should be fitting Hellas because the stock lights suck. Are you making a custom Hella installation?

Everyone draws their line somewhere. If you don't, you are just dumping dollars into a black hole.

ultrasonic wrote:How do YOU add it up and not come close top $300.

I wasn't trying to be argumentative... I just wanted to ne sure we both understood how much they cost.

I understand that electrical stuff and shipping would have to be added, but I'll reiterate that that holds true for all headlights.

ultrasonic wrote:

vrg3 wrote:Fair enough -- it'd certainly be a lot easier and attract a lot less attention. But these Hellas will outperform the stock European headlights handily..

A stock Porsche will outperform my car, but that doesn't mean I'm going to justify buying one.

Again, I wasn't trying to argue. I just wanted to make it clear that these Hellas are much better than the OEM ECE lights. That's all. I haven't endorsed any one non-stupid headlight setup over any other.

Facts help all of us make our own informed and educated decisions, right?

vrg3 wrote:

ultrasonic wrote:How do YOU add it up and not come close to $300.

I wasn't trying to be argumentative... I just wanted to ne sure we both understood how much they cost.

Yeah, I understand how much they cost. Close to $300 just for parts, like I said in the first place. Close being a somewhat relative term, admittedly.

THAWA wrote:Steve there is no such thing as automotive lighting being too expensive.

Then I'll expect to see the Hella 90mm Xenon HID modules on your car! At about $500 each, that should come "close" to $2000, just for the modules. But what the hell, you have to see, right?

But, I'm just giving you guys a hard time, you know? I wish I could afford to have $2000 headlights on my $2500 car. If I could afford it, I probably could find something better to do with the money. Let's be practical, shall we?

After all, the standard 90mm modules really are close to $300, plus the housings, plus hours of fabrication. And, given that the Euro option might come through (looks like it could happen for less than $300), the Hellas are too expensive. For me, anyway. And that is a fact.

vrg3 wrote:I haven't endorsed any one non-stupid headlight setup over any other.

What non-stupid headlight setup DO you suggest?

ultrasonic wrote:Then I'll expect to see the Hella 90mm Xenon HID modules on your car! At about $500 each, that should come "close" to $2000, just for the modules. But what the hell, you have to see, right?

It's not clear that those HID units are actually better than the H9 ones. Actually, I'd much rather have the H9s.

What non-stupid headlight setup DO you suggest?

Please drop the attitude.

I don't know what I suggest for a pre-facelift car. There are a lot of options, but none are easy and cheap. You gotta make your own decision. Maybe a conversion to the post-facelift front end? Maybe a set of OEM ECE lights? Maybe just the stock low beams plus a pair of the now-discontinued-and-hard-to-find Hella XL auxiliary low beams? Maybe a pair of bumper-mounted ECE headlights? Maybe these 90mm lights? Maybe hack up some stock headlight housings to hold a sealed beam, and then use a high quality sealed beam replacement headlight? Or a cheap one?

wow, this got a bit out of hand.

back to topic.

how crucial is the initial mounting of the lamps i wonder?

do they have to be placed perfect in the housing, or can the adjuster screws compensate?

a good auxilliary light aiming technique i saw was used by the SRT USA at rallies. they had a large board (painted WRB of course) w/circles painted on them like targets to aim the lights at. perfect every time.

as far as the cost thing goes. i think these lamps are quite a good deal for what you get. and the hours of work would be worth it if that was your thing. and its necessary for a BC chassis if you want projectors as there is no other real option.

the european glass light deal sounds cool IF it goes through. i hope it does. however the improvement over stock doesnt seem to be worth it for me.

if i spend any money it will be on a custom made set of hella 90mms.

i may just put some brackets in place of the stock assembly and call it good. who needs the pretty molded housing?

not me.

i'm all about function over form.

besides im sure i can find a way to make it look decent for cheap.

and i think 300 for this set up isnt a bad price at all.

The aimers can do a lot. With these lights, the aimers are the mounting screws, and they're fairly long. So you do need to mount the lights perfectly, but there's play built into the hardware to make that possible. If that makes any sense.

An aiming diagram like that requires you to have the board at a fixed position relative to the car. It's essentially what you create every time you aim a pair of visually-aimable lights anyway. All over Ithaca there are random walls with little crosshairs on them made of electrical tape, remnants of a time I aimed headlights there but forgot to clean up after myself...

i do believe your title here should be lighting king or something like that.

yeah, they had the board out at service parks in the woods. not too many walls in the middle of michigan's U.P.

If you adapt the original headlight housings as I am you also have the housing adjusters for extra flexibility.

Steve

ultrasonic wrote:

THAWA wrote:Steve there is no such thing as automotive lighting being too expensive.

Then I'll expect to see the Hella 90mm Xenon HID modules on your car! At about $500 each, that should come "close" to $2000, just for the modules. But what the hell, you have to see, right?

You really didn't like my statement did you?

Anyway, you completely misinterperated it. I wasn't saying I was going to spend x amount of dollars, or that you're stupid for thinking it is too expensive or whatever. What I meant to say was that you can't put a price on being able to see at night. You just have to be able to afford it. But just because it's a certain price doesn't mean it's too expensive.

THAWA wrote:

ultrasonic wrote:

THAWA wrote:Steve there is no such thing as automotive lighting being too expensive.

Then I'll expect to see the Hella 90mm Xenon HID modules on your car! At about $500 each, that should come "close" to $2000, just for the modules. But what the hell, you have to see, right?

You really didn't like my statement did you?

Anyway, you completely misinterperated it. I wasn't saying I was going to spend x amount of dollars, or that you're stupid for thinking it is too expensive or whatever. What I meant to say was that you can't put a price on being able to see at night. You just have to be able to afford it. But just because it's a certain price doesn't mean it's too expensive.

that is what i tought you meant.

vrg3 wrote: It's not clear that those HID units are actually better than the H9 ones. Actually, I'd much rather have the H9s.

Really? What leads you to think this? I'm no expert, nor am I particularly enamored with HID. I would think that Hella would have this technology pretty well dialed in, so I just assumed the quality and performance is there.

vrg3 wrote:

What non-stupid headlight setup DO you suggest?

Please drop the attitude.

I don't know what I suggest for a pre-facelift car. There are a lot of options, but none are easy and cheap. You gotta make your own decision. Maybe a conversion to the post-facelift front end? Maybe a set of OEM ECE lights? Maybe just the stock low beams plus a pair of the now-discontinued-and-hard-to-find Hella XL auxiliary low beams? Maybe a pair of bumper-mounted ECE headlights? Maybe these 90mm lights? Maybe hack up some stock headlight housings to hold a sealed beam, and then use a high quality sealed beam replacement headlight? Or a cheap one?

Hey, no attitude intended! I'm quite interested in your suggestions, as I respect your opinion and experience.

Of course I know the Hella 90mm is better than stock, and better than the e code lights. I still intend to meet with my fabrication friend to discuss the custom housings. Who knows, if we can come up with an elegant solution, we may make them available. He says we could make a reusable mold (or form, or whatever). Rhetorical question: How many people might be interested in professional (not made by me!) carbon fiber housings for 90mm modules? Or how about an entire kit- modules, relay & wiring kit, housings, brackets, all the nuts and bolts and connectors? For pre-facelift, of course.

It would have to cost a few hundred dollars, don't you imagine? Whether you consider it expensive, or even "too expensive" is up to you. I can only guess that if I'm the only one paying for the development and parts, it's going to be too expensive- for me. If the development time could be spread across several sets, the cost might drop down to a level that I might be willing to spend.

Thanks for the lively conversation, guys! This is fun...

Hella's still a greedy corporation that'll do anything to make a buck. And lately they've been letting marketers run the show way more than they should. I mean, look at the entire OptiLux line of crap.

In my opinion, the existing standards-compliant HID low beam headlights are not better than the halogen setups. There are several facts I base this opinion on:

- The higher short-wavelength component of HID lights' output means the light will scatter more in bad weather, causing increased glare levels for both the driver and other traffic.

- The higher short-wavelength component also causes other difficulties like making things a little harder to focus on and making it a little harder on your night vision.

- It's also harder on other drivers' night vision, particularly if you're using such a small headlamp. A small lamp means that a large amount of light is concentrated in a small portion of the visual field.

- The non-continuous spectral output of the HID light source means that HID lights have worse color rendering indices than light bulbs do. Not that the difference in CRI is a really big deal, but it's nice to know you can see colors more clearly.

- The high voltages that drive HID capsules have the potential to be dangerous. Did you know that all OEM HID setups disable themselves permanently when the car is in a wreck? This is done to protect rescue workers from being electrocuted.

- Legal HID low beams often suffer from the problem of having too much light. All headlamp beam regulations place maximum limits on intensity at various places in the beam. It's easy to hit those limits even with a halogen light source. So with HID, the designers have to find places to stash the extra light. Those places are often right up in the foreground, where they make the driver feel more comfortable (and so make the lights easier to sell) but actually damage distance vision.

- HID lights cannot be flashed on and off. That removes one of the relatively few methods a driver has to signal things to other drivers.

- And of course, HID lights are much more expensive than halogen lights, even in terms of lumens per dollar.

Basically, the only way in which HID is actually better than halogen is in energy efficiency; you get roughly 80 to 90 lumens per watt. Halogen light sources give around 20 to 30 lumens per watt.

To me, it seems that a high-output halogen light source is the way to go.

Hey, no attitude intended!

I'm sorry... I just got thrown off by the shouting and by your twice quoting and rebutting Hardy's statement . No biggie.

And you know, if it were possible to put a really nice pair of headlights on a pre-facelift car for only a few hundred dollars, I might actually consider converting to a pre-facelift front end, if non-North-American corner lights would fit.

greg: I'm usually like you -- function over form. Funny thing, though, is that recently (this past year) I've been wanting function but with some form, meaning that I'd still like the form of the original lenses.

Let us know how your project turns out when you get to it.

Hope you don't mind me asking vrg3 this: How much better are the glass ECE lenses over the usdm lenses (post-facelift)? And how much better are the Hella 90mm lights over the glass ECE lights? And...I'm not trying to be insulting or funny, but, how do you know (just wondering if you've actually been able to see the glass lenses' lighting and the 90mmers or are the specs of the 90mmers so good that there is no question about their superiority?)

Whoa, while I was typing out my post, you guys posted a bunch of things. I gotta go read them now.

ultrasonic: You asked a rhetorical question but I'll answer anyway. I'll be interested to know beforehand how much it would cost to fabricate a kit for the Hella 90mm lights. The only thing, though, is that my car is post-facelift.

93Leg-c wrote:ultrasonic: You asked a rhetorical question but I'll answer anyway. I'll be interested to know beforehand how much it would cost to fabricate a kit for the Hella 90mm lights. The only thing, though, is that my car is post-facelift.

I don't know what to tell you. I may or may not take up the task of development on the 89-91 version. I have no plans to address 92-94. I don't think my fabricator would get involved on his own. I'll ask him if he would mind if I give out his contact info. He is an experienced race car builder and has extensive carbon fiber fabrication background. He has done many projects like this on other kinds of cars. I doubt I'll have an opportunity to discuss this with him until mid January.

93Leg-c - You can't really quantify how "good" a pair of headlights is. But, when our cars were made there was no overlap between DOT and ECE headlight specifications. Our post-facelift headlights are built to DOT specs, which, among other things, require more glare and worse high beams than ECE specs.

I've seen the lighting of the 90mm lights and it's pretty impressive. It's easy to understand why; they use very effective light sources, extremely efficient high-control optics, and have the advantage of having high and low beams that can be aimed separately. I have not personally seen an ECE Subaru headlight, though... I've seen RHD Subaru headlights, and would expect the output to be similar aside from the horizontally-reflected pattern. Again, you can't quantitatively say one headlight is better than another, but... well, there you have it.