legacycentral bbs

Vehicle: 1993 Subaru Legacy Wagon AWD 2.2 NA
Oil changed every 3000 mi or less (no kidding)


Hi gang. Well, I've noticed for a couple of months now some mild squeaking/chirping from time to time coming from the engine somewhere and it's been getting progressively more frequent. Usually when cold, but sometimes when idling)

Was driving home when it started happening again and again, tried to get it up the hill near home and it died on the way up. Here is what I can tell you:

-When the car died, it did so when the skritch/skreek noise was bad, then nothing.
-Before the engine cut out, the car was firing/running perfectly, as always (except for the odd noise)
-Did not overheat, no caution lights beforehand
-Tried restart, engine cranked, but would not even try to catch
-while cranking, the 'check engine' light lit up at regular intervals (like one light every 2 turns or so), as though it lost track of something that should have said "here I am!".

Now, I -bet- the timing belt toasted itself. But WHY would it toast itself? And what was the skritching/squaking?

Should I be thinking seized water pump destroying timing belt? Camshaft bearings and seized cam? Could bearings in a belt tensioner seize then destroy the belt?

I read the 1992 2.2 is a non-interference, how about the 1993?

Any gentle words of reassurnace would be appreciated... =)
Cheers,
Chris, Pittsburgh PA

Any of those things could take the timing belt down, you'll find out anyway when you look into it. You'll be wise to replace the water pump and the tensioner anyway when replacing the belt.

Perhaps the belt was fraying and that's what you heard.

All of the engines are non-interference so no worries there.

Remove a valve cover and see if anything moves when you crank, if not you'll know its gone.

Just heard from the mechanic:

Probable sequence of events:
-idler pully bearings frazzled
-this (somehow) killed the the water pump
-timing belt snapped
-snapped the idler pully through bolt off

Let this be a lesson to you. If you are replacing the timing belt might as well replace the idler bearings and maybe the water pump as well.

Ack.

Chris

How many miles on your beast when this unfortunate fate got it?

I replaced the WP with the timing belt @ 69k miles, but the idlers were fine.

Planning to reseal the oil pump and replace the idlers/tensioner at 120k miles.

That's crazy, because the same exact thing happened to me a few weeks ago (at the gas station, at night, in the f'n cold, with a worthless unhelpful attendant) with the exception of the water pump. I reused the tensioner from the JY engine since it had less miles. Bolt broke off the tensioner pulley in the block. Had to hand it off to my mechanic who used a 90 deg drill and an easy-out to get the broken bolt, which was deep in the block, out. He charged me $280 for it and a new belt.

Steve

Steve

OK - something similar happened to me just recently, although quite different...

Car was fine for the longest time... drove it to my buddy's this past Sunday for an offroading trip (as in, he was taking his Jeep offroad with a bunch of other Jeeps, and I was going to ride as a passenger - NOT bring my Subaru) and parked it in his driveway. When we got back and I started the car to leave for home, it sounded funny idling. Like rubber slapping plastic.

Shut it off after I confirmed where I thought the noise was coming from -- QUICKLY. Had no idea if our engines were non-interference or if I was bending valves already. Opened a corner of the timing cover and flexed the plastic back slightly so I could see the belt. Still looked new, but man was it loose! The tensioner was not doing its job for some reason. So I deemed it unsafe to drive home that night and pushed it into my friends garage for later examination, and caught a ride home.

Checked the car out yesterday - removed the fans, loosened the radiator, removed the belt guards, belts, and crank pulley. Took the timing cover off and dear god theres a piece of my BLOCK missing! The tensioner bolt must have been in crooked or something for it to rip out its entire mounting surface! I now have a crater where the bolt head used to be, and most of the bolt is still in the block behind that. But the tensioner has to be perfectly straight for any kind of timing belt reliability to be there, how the hell do I mount it straight now?

This is what I get for going to a Texaco full-service station for a timing belt / water pump replacement. After getting to the timing area and looking around, I see now that I could have done that myself!!

Am I minus an EJ22T today?

Update - after cleaning, the tensioner mounting surface appears to be OK but I do have a snapped bolt deep in the block there. 90 degree drill and easy out, any advice on this operation? We're gonna try and get as straight a shot as possible but this doesnt look like its gonna be easy...

I wonder if they left out the sleeve that goes around the bolt for the tensioner. That could beat the bag out of everything until the block broke off. The block is unthreaded for a portion near the opening and the threaded hole goes pretty deep. If you get the old bolt out, you may be able to replace it and use some washers or something as a spacer to mount it back. You may have to clean off the broken part to make it straight.

Steve

Saw for myself the final pieces that came out of the car:

Car has 149,000 Miles

- Bearings in tensioner died (I mean, shredded to bits)
- This tore the bolt off the water pump housing
- Killed timing belt too

Solution:
- Replace Tensioner and bolt
- Replace Water Pump (mech tried ez out, no luck)
- Replace Timing Belt
- Replace something I'm forgetting, but saw.
- Labor, $360, parts $360
- Pay $720

It is sad to acknowledge that your favorite mechanic just hosed you, but I've been hosed. True, he did throw in new plugs, wires, and something else... but man.

Lesson lerarned: watch that tensioner. Grrrr.

Could someone elaborate on the sleeve that supposedly goes around the tensioner pulley belt? We ended up having to use a helicoil to get the bolt to have any hold at all, used washers to space it properly and made sure it was snug. Is there a sleeve that will fix my woes, if I go through the trouble of removing all that crap again to get to it?

that's a little steep for a complete timing belt job, I think. I would never even consider replacing a timing belt without replacing the tensioner(s), it is a cheap insurance policy to do so.

Water pump should be automatic on the second timing belt replacement, and on certain, well-known problem child cars (E36 BMW comes to mind), every timing belt replacement.

There's a sleeve that goes between the wall of the tensioner pulley and the bolt that holds it in. It's really a steel bushing. If you notice, the pulley mounting hole is much bigger than the bolt diameter.

Steve

A steel bushing, huh? I bought a whole new tensioner assembly from Subaru just for the friggin bolt, and it didnt come with a steel bushing for that. I thought the last guy who did my timing belt replacement just screwed up the hole big time, didnt know all EJ22T blocks had the larger hole for the pulley. So where do I get this bushing, if it wasn't a part of the assemly?

Wait. You are talking about the bolt hole in the BLOCK being too large for the tensioner pulley bolt to thread into, correct? The pulley assembly did come with a sleeve to center the bolt when going through the pulley but nothing for the hole in the block. Had to put two helicoils in there so I could thread the bolt in and hold my pulley on!

Part number anyone, if there is indeed a sleeve that is meant to go in the block for the tensioner pulley bolt to thread into....... otherwise I'll have to leave it as it is and wait until it decides to break again and just jury rig it the same way again.

Chris, you may be able to find the part number yourself if you look through the parts guide Josh posted in the Stuff You Need to Know forum.

Hey Vikash!

Well, I didn't see a block bolt sleeve in the parts blow-up in the PDF posted on the site - of course I already checked there, I was going nuts trying to find a way to get the bolt by itself instead of the tensioner pulley assembly but I had to, $120 from Subaru (later found Central Auto had one for $60!) but we used everything from the assembly and there was no block sleeve; that would have made everything MUCH easier after getting the old helicoil out. I dont like having one of those flimsy things in such a critical spot but it was the only way I had to get the car running again without removing the block and finding a machine shop willing to weld that hole shut and redrill it perfectly centered and straight, tapped with the proper size to allow the Subaru bolt to thread in there.

Are we talking about the same sleeve here?? Does the one I'm talking about even exist?? I did get a metal sleeve for the bolt but its not threaded; it's for the bolt shoulder to be centered in the pulley. My problem is with the bolt hole in the block that needed a helicoil to allow the Subaru bolt to thread in properly.

[tirade]Damn timing belt. Every other part of this engine is solidly overengineered; thick cylinder walls....oversized coolant passages...designed to handle complete 24 psi overboost from stock turbo (if wastegate control line blows off) without blowing up...and they use a friggin BELT to time it?! With insanely delicate, overly expensive hydraulic AND pulley-based tensioner parts? And could we HAVE any more idlers in there?!? For the love of god, man - my SATURN has a timing chain!![/tirade]

No, the sleeve is in the pulley (you have it) - there's no block sleeve, but the threads on the block start fairly deep inside the hole.

EA81s had a timing gear.

Steve

OK, thanks Steve - I was fairly certain my block hole was screwed up by the last person to do a timing operation, I didnt think Subaru would have done that.

So the EA81's get a timing gear, and we get a belt. Lame. (Who's the what? EJ18's?)

So I know the tensioner pulley will eventually shear its mounting bolt and let the timing belt flap around again. That sucks. Anyone ever had to deal with the block hole being jacked up like that - with a permanent fix? I'd like to hear about that.

The threads do indeed start pretty deep into this hole, but I am pretty certain the hole is not as Subaru intended it.

Hey - if the guy who changed the timing belt last didn't replace the tensioner pulley bolt, perhaps thats why it sheared? Has that happened to anyone only to be solved by changing the pulley assembly every time with the timing belt after it was fixed? Maybe this is a negligence issue on the mechanic's part. Thats what I get for not doing it myself.

the sleeve is part of the tnsioner body, and is there so vibrational streses and tension are not transmitted to the bolt itself.

BTW helicoils, provided there is enough meat there to use them properly, and they are correctly installed, hold more tear-out torque than the original threaded hole. Sleeved holes are essentially the same thing but factory installed, and will be found on many aluminum blocks.

If the mechanic removed the tensioner pulley and failed to instal the sleeve that would probably take the bolt out, a failed tensioner also. I had this problem with mine due to failed tensioner. I usually don't replace them a T-belt changes, but will from now on, though mine probably failed from sitting idle - it was in a JY for who knows how long.

EA81s were Subaru's 1.8 OHV that was supplanted in 1985 (but still carried on the BRAT and hatch) by the EA82 - an OHC version of the engine that uses 2 timing belts. So count yourself lucky you don't have one of those. Most cars use timing belts as they're pretty robust, smooth, and quiet.

Steve

Wait... so with my properly-installed helicoil and tensioner pulley, I've got as much strength as - if not more than - the stock setup?

Oh and my tensioner was fine when the bolt sheared.. It had the sleeve too. I used the new tensioner of course since I had it but the old one is fine.

Bolt was hard to get out of the block though. The easy-out worked but man the threads looked bad. We suspect it was driven in crooked by an air tool by the last mechanic to perform the operation. Seems as though his helicoil was also not installed properly.

...think my tensioner bolt will hold until the next time I need to replace the timing belt? I've been kinda worried about that and haven't tried to rev it up past 3.5k or so. Should I go to the track and get a time or two once the intercooler's hooked up or should I be searching for someplace to get a block sleeve for that hole?

You might want to just check on it in a few weeks and see how it's holding up. If it isn't, then you may want to get someone who's really good with that sort of thing.

Steve

Hmm... well it'll just shear the bolt again when it finally decides to go, and my timing belt will flap around. I don't see what I could possibly check, other than that the bolt is still tight. It's already been this way for over a week and seems OK so far.

That's what I mean. Just keep an eye on it for a while. Hopefully if it starts to loosen, you'll catch it. Did you Loctite the bolt? I think if you torque it right (and maybe Loctite it) you'll be fine.

Steve

Update: our helicoil repair was still holding up just fine a loooooong time later, just recently had the timing belt replaced and learned a couple things (as documented in this other thread here):

1) I didn't have to helicoil - that bolt was in a bracket!
--Tensioner Bracket (includes tensioner's bolt hole that I had to helicoil at one point): Subaru Part # 13086AA012
Cost: $130
Not constantly worrying about the ghetto repair job you had to do to your tensioner bolt hole: Priceless

2) Even though this repair held up, it wasn't gonna much longer. The timing belt was cracked and teeth were tearing and all kinds of scary things. Good thing these are non-interference engines!! We also couldn't re-use the helicoil repair; had to use more than 1 helicoil in series and the first held up. The second was crooked by this time. This might have accelerated wear on the timing belt as I am not quite at my service interval on distance yet (I believe I'm somewhere around 60,000 km and timing belt is 100,000 km) -- although it has been several years.

8 year update, that's gotta be about the record . Thanks for sharing.