legacycentral bbs

Ok, This morning I stalled out my (stick shift '93) wagon by getting out when it was in gear... i have the excuse that it was an "emergency".

Well, upon restart, I got smoke under the hood and appeared to have a loss of power steering. I parked it and took another car today. I am wondering if anyone has an idea what's happened.

I was getting minor and brief belt screech on ignition before this incident. I also had the water pump and all belts replaced 2 weeks ago (have been suspicious that the screech was related to this repair).

Perhaps unrelated... when parked downhill, I have a hard time starting up and then blowout of black smoke... which I guess indicates some leak into the fuel line.

Help?

What do you mean by "getting out when it was in gear?"

Where was the smoke coming from? Maybe your power steering pump is bad. It could cause belt screech, it could cause a lack of steering assist, and it could drip ATF onto the exhaust and cause smoke.

Though if the screech just started when the belts were replaced, it probably means the belt just wasn't tightened properly.

I got out while in gear... popping the clutch, lurching the car, and stalling the engine.

Smoke was from the front middle of the hood.

Now that I think about it, upon restart, there was a continual screeching noise.

Oh. That shouldn't have really hurt anything.

The middle of the hood? Do you mean from the middle of the engine? Or did you not raise the hood to look?

Your alternator/steering belt is probably loose enough that it wasn't even driving the power steering pump.

The smoke was from just above the grille... in the front of the car, middle of the hood. Sorry.

I did not have a chance to raise the hood as I was late for work. I'll check it out tonight though.

Think the PS pump is bad and dropping ATF? I guess the continual squeak could be explained by the belt that got looser or got some crap on it. It sure was a brief sqeak before this incident though, almost just a chirp.

I'm leery of starting the car without narrowing down a cause for the smoke.

(This whole thing is putting a real damper on the factory fresh '05 WRX wheels/tires I got for it... cheap!)

We can't begin to make a diagnosis until you pop the hood and take a look... With the hood closed, smoke can move around a lot, and right around the grille is just a natural place for it to escape.

It's possible that the pump is leaking, but it could easily be something else.

Sometimes belts that are loose get worse and worse as they slip.

I understand your hesitation to start the engine again, but it's probably not that big a deal. This evening, prop the hood open, check the motor oil level, check the power steering fluid level, and check the transmission fluid level. Then check belt tension and also check that the belts are clean (not oily) and in good condition.

Correct any problems you might find, and then go ahead and start it up (with a fire extinguisher handy). Observe what happens and make your own judgements and/or post back here.

I just removed the power steering system after my turbo cooked the lines. Vikash is probably right tho, try tightening the belt and adding atf fluid or power steering fluid.

ATF -- not power steering fluid.

And if your belts are loose enough and the PS pump is tight enough from lack of fluid, the smoke could have been the moving belt rubbing itself on the stuck PS pulley. That happened to me once when a rock somehow got lodged behind the PS pulley and it stopped, burned right through the belt, engine compartment was pouring smoke. But upon closer examination, that is exactly what it was. The screeching sound gave it away, I kinda figured what it was before I even stopped (just didn't know which pulley since I wasn't steering at the time)

vrg3 wrote:ATF -- not power steering fluid.

ATF = Power Steering Fluid.

It'll work though......as long as it isn't honda specific stuff.

I've been using the valvoline synpower PS fluid since I don't even remember....well over 5+ years.

Holy S*&!

I am an idiot. I was well aware that my power steering line had a slow leak and I was filling it rather than repair it (bad call). BUT, the car was inactive for the whole summer awaiting the water pump, and since I "reactivated" it after the repair, I forgot about the power steering situation. Shheeeoot, I am flighty.

I bet that's it. I'm eager to get home and check... too bad I'm working a 16 hour day. Oh-oh-oh-overtime baby.

Thanks for all the help. I'll update with the result when I have it.

Josh - I'm curious... why would you of all people use something other than what is specified? I mean, almost any oil will likely work, but it might not match up to what the engineers were expecting in terms of interaction with seals and kinematic viscosity at various temperatures and stuff.

Matt - Hehe.... Yup, that'd likely be it, then. Good luck!

vrg3 wrote:Josh - I'm curious... why would you of all people use something other than what is specified? I mean, almost any oil will likely work, but it might not match up to what the engineers were expecting in terms of interaction with seals and kinematic viscosity at various temperatures and stuff.

To be honest.....that's what I had used when I first got the car. I just haven't changed. When I swap the engine in, and have to drain the rack & pump, I'll probably refill with redline D4 ATF since I had good luck with it in the trans.

Ok, last night I refilled what must have been 5-10 fl. ounces of Mercon brand ATF. I sure screwed up this time. I have yet to start the car to see what happens (the vagaries of going to work at 6 and getting home at 11pm).

Even if it spins up beautifully, the question arises: How much damage did I do to the belts/engine parts by running it for less than ~5-10 seconds, during which time something got hot enough to burn (likely belts; white puffy smoke which smelled like burning rubber)?????

Riddle me that oh wise Subie sooths!

(My basic understanding of physics would lead me to question the integrity of my newly installed belts (boo-hoo)).

I doubt you did any damage to the engine. You may have damaged the belt some, but they're cheap and easy to replace.

I'm sorry to say the power steering pump may well be fried; it relies on the ATF for lubrication and could have seized up when the ATF ran out.

Maybe you should loosen the belt and see if you can turn the pump by hand.

Ok, I'll try that. If I did fry it, will either of these work as a replacement?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... ename=WDVW

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... ename=WDVW

Sorry, second link should've been ...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... ename=WDVW

I don't know... Your best bet is probably either trying to replace your current pump's bearings (do a search; someone did a really nice writeup on how to do it) or get another first-generation pump.

The first one won't drop in; it doesn't even have a reservoir (I believe that one is meant for a remote reservoir.

I don't know for sure if the second one has the same fittings as our pumps or not (it does kind of look like it), or if it uses the same type of mounting bracket as ours or not.

I've been running my power steering pump emty and disconnected for a couple days now waiting to get a belt that just goes over the crank and alternator. No damage has been done to mine soo far. But you never know, if the car has been inactive that long maybe the fluid left in the bottom is gone.

As for ATF fluid and PS fluid, they aren't oils. It's hydraulic fluid, if anything, power steering fluid is probably better for the car as it contains less impurities than ATF. Honda's are the only car i know that it really matters.

Update

I checked all fluid levels and then started the car today.

There was a clacking/grinding sound that was constant at first, but decreased over the span of 30 sec. until it intermittent and then gone altogether. No more smoke.

The engine appears to be running smooth now (through entire RPM range). Belts appear undamaged and clean.

Was this the sound of the PS fluid working its way back into all the bearings, I wonder? I guess I'm going to keep running as-is for a little while... keeping trips short. I'll be checking belts & PS pump closely over the coming weeks.

Any thoughts are welcome.

Yeah, it could have been the pump being starved for lubrication. You may want to try bleeding any extra air out of the power steering system by slowly turning the wheel until the lock, holding it for a few seconds, and then slowly turning to the other lock.