legacycentral bbs

I'm certain there's a good reason not to do this, but i want to hear it.

So like, ya watch an autox, and all the fwd cars with reknowned handling character seem to lift up their inside rear leg and pee on the apex. The GTi, the 205, and the evo are classic examples. Subbies, with their long travel strut rear suspension, never do this. So, why not say, attach a cable to the strut that can be adjusted to cut some of the strut's total downward travel off? A thicker rear sway bar does this, sort of, but it adds more spring and reduces the independance of the struts. Of course it doesn't make so much sense in rally, but does it make more sense for a road car??

If you put a cable there to act as your travel limiter, you'd eventually break either the cable or the cable attachments from fatigue. You'd also lose the gradual fade of traction and I personally think it'd take a while to learn a car with a sudden limit like that in the middle of turns. My .02.

Some types of race cars have "limiting straps." I believe they are often used on trucks and off-road vehicles to keep the suspension components like struts from extending past their limits.

Wheel hop.

First gen Miata's have a big problem without having enough bump travel in the rear. A nice sized bump in the middle of an otherwise smooth turn and the wheel will bottom out and bounce, really upsetting things. It was enough of a problem that they make rear shock relocation kits that give an extra 3/4" of travel (without affecting ride height).

On an auto-X does this often happen? Not really.

But why would you want to remove rubber from the road, when you need it the most? Just because cars with "reknowned" handling do this, doesn't mean it's good. A car can give the impression of impecable handling, but in reality not be that great. I almost never see Integra Type-R's lift the inside rear, unless something is wrong with the car or driver. And Integra Type-R's ARE one of the best handling front drivers, ever to hit this side of the pond.

Interesting idea, it makes me think. But my 2 cents is that I'm not a fan:

Removing rubber from the road is not a good thing. The physics of the coefficient of friction for tires says that you'll get the best overall coefficient when the weight of the car is shared by all the tires as evenly as possible, not concentrated one one corner by artificially forcing the opposite tire to lift.

Like Phil said, just because cars with good handling LIFT, that doesn't mean that lifting was the secret to their success. Maybe it's just an unfortunate side effect? I think in actuality, the vast majority of people would prefer to eliminate tire lift... that would be like having your cake and eating it too. But you can't always - sometimes it's just an unfortunate compromise.

But, you're talking about something else. Removing rubber from the road in a sudden, jerky fashion (when the strap tightens) seems way worse than even doing it the normal way. It sounds scary for that strap to be going taught and slack right when you are at the edge of your handling... unstable and unpredictable!

BTW - Subarus lift all the time depending on mods. Here's a great thread of photos:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=817836

Might i remind y'all that this is a wheel that doesn't have hardly any weight on it in the first place? The miata is running out of compressed strut, this is the same with bmws. This is the exact opposite problem of the one at hand.

You would remove rubber from the road to make the front and rear lose traction at closer to the same time. Who cares if one end of the car has infinite grip if it's limited by the other end? Honestly, what do you think a sway bar does??

*edit*
Thanks for the link sam. Sounds like although it may work pretty well for entry, once the gas is on (and hopefully the tire revisits the pavement) it won't hold a line as well as a swaybar-enabled car. Shrug.

I'm confused here.. does this mean my 18mm rear bar is a good idea?

Yeah, going tighter on the rear than stock (however you do it) is usually advantageous... so I'm not bashing that part, Scott.

There's not much wrong with tight rear sways if you're focusing on nice, smooth pavement handling (and as long as things are kept in balance and moderation!) They're relatively cheap and proven, so I don't think there's much incentive to mess with the straps.... unless you're just having fun with your unhealthy curiosity

Front camber is that third option to keep in mind... that's like taking two steps forward, whereas your strap (and even a swaybar) might be two steps forward one step back.

rallysam wrote:Yeah, going tighter on the rear than stock (however you do it) is usually advantageous... so I'm not bashing that part, Scott.

There's not much wrong with tight rear sways if you're focusing on nice, smooth pavement handling (and as long as things are kept in balance and moderation!) They're relatively cheap and proven, so I don't think there's much incentive to mess with the straps.... unless you're just having fun with your unhealthy curiosity

Front camber is that third option to keep in mind... that's like taking two steps forward, whereas your strap (and even a swaybar) might be two steps forward one step back.

Yeah, this whole topic is mostly for fun, although it seems like there may be advantages to limiting the travel rather than going bigger bar-- like on a rough road or maintaining soft ride, for example. Another reason to mess with it is because the swaybar adds undamped spring to the rear; we've all felt the rear outside violently unload in a transition.

Yeah, really the best thing is to optimize the front end, but the front is always going to be at a disadvantage to the rear. For myself, i've got the camber to where it sticks as much as it can without destroying tires too regularly. I've still got to rotate them pretty often. Wish there was a way to stiffen the front initially and still keep it soft.

I think i will probably experiment with this idea some time when i get bored. I wish i had a track and a pit where i could make quick changes to my car and immediately try things out. Running around in the hills takes too much time and i cant drive at a level to really push it.