legacycentral bbs

'91 turbo Legacy.

I read all the posts back to 2003 and got a ton of good info BUT the car I'm modifying needs to be legal for P/GT rally racing class which means limited mods. I'm looking for help on squeezing the most power and torque that I can.

I Have a low mileage tubo shortblock, I'm thinking of balancing? Can this be done without a full rebuild? What else?

The heads I have are high mileage so a ful rebuil is in order. What should I do to the heads and what parts? 3/4/5 angle grind? Special valves/springs/retainers? Porting and/or port matching? Combustion chamber matching? What else?

Can anything be done to a stock turbo like porting? Or? I'm required to run a 32mm restrictor at the inlet to the turbo. Is there any tricks to nurse extra performance in light of this?

Intake? sensors? TB?

The air box and piping must remain stock

Boost is free (would like to keep this within reason for reliability/longevity reasons) and piggy back ECU's are allowed. What's resonable for boost with stock injestors? Any advice on piggy back systems? Any body in the NW that wil do the tuning work? Jake?

Any other ideas? Looking for any performance I can find.

Any and all help is appreciated.

What have you read so far in your Rally America rule book? I know all your questions can be answered there. :D:D

Have Richard Buckner down in Hillsboro rebuild your engine for you. The engine we originally used in the Orange impreza just now NEEDS a rebuild after running for 4 seasons.

Www.franticfour.com

Just got did up.

I have read the rule book a number of times. I'm looking for inovation within the rules...
I'll get in touch with Richard...

JasonGrahn wrote:What have you read so far in your Rally America rule book? I know all your questions can be answered there. :D:D

Have Richard Buckner down in Hillsboro rebuild your engine for you. The engine we originally used in the Orange impreza just now NEEDS a rebuild after running for 4 seasons.

Don't worry yourself with innovations yet. Just worry about driving the car down the stage and not crashing.

So nobody has any ideas how to squeeze a couple extra ponies out of a basically stock car?

BTW Jason, what makes you think a slow car will keep me from crashing? LOL

Oh, I have plenty of ideas, but you shouldn't be worrying about those right now, you should simply be focusing on keeping your car on the road.

is the car built now and logbooked?

are you a rookie to rally?

have you read the part of the RA rule book about rookie rally drivers not being allowed in AWD turbo cars?

Lets not worry about those facts right now greg. In the NW, we run both RA and NASA, so it works out okay for rooks.

JasonGrahn wrote:

I don't think the other thread is going to terribly far off topic at all. I'd much rather prefer to lock this and continue on the other thread. Tell us WHY you NEED more power (Barrett didn't need more power when HE was driving the car) and i'm sure you'll get a response there.

OK Jason, I'm not sure why you are so intent on being an asscrack and I don't see why this information is relevant but I'll try to explain since you are acting like a dickhead.

The engine Barrett had in the car was run for a period with no water in it and then replaced with a worn out engine with low compression in two cylinders prior to me buying it. I'm going to assemble a new engine that will have a good blend of power and reliability.
Furthermore, the car is currently in Open trim and is going back to P/GT trim...so it will have less power, not more (where do you draw these conclusions from?) AND I think Barrett did need more power since he sold this car and to build a new car on a lighter platform with a more powerful engine...DUH!

I'm amazed at how you are able to post so much without contributing anything to the discussion. However, I do believe you showed incredible insight when you made the statement "I don't think" That is self evident.

The one thing I did learn from all your useful input is that none of my cars will ever be equipped with a set of H&R Springs!

flame away know-it-all

edit by jason to fix quote.

Guys, guys, guys.

Clearly there is some tension in this thread, but let's keep it civil. Toomuch, I understand where you're coming from and that you don't feel your driving experience is relevant to your quest for a little more power. Jason, I certainly understand where you are coming from and I agree that it's more important to really know a car than it is to have extra power.

However, if we're going to start a pissing match, like I said, let keep it as civil as possible and not start the name calling and the bright red all caps. It doesn't accomplish anything, nor does just telling someone they need to learn their car better before you'll help them. This thread has gone off topic enough, let's try to bring it back, m'kay.

toomuch:

Yeah, JasonGrahn can be really annoying at times. I had a run in with him when I first started posting here. I've learned to either ignore him or just shake my head when his comments or actions befuddle me. You know, it's almost like a right of passage on legacycentral to have one of your threads locked by Jason.

As far as I'm concerned, one of the threads should be locked. Having parallel threads of the same subject makes it confusing to follow, and ultimately does not serve the community well.

I figure this thread has a 50% chance of being locked within the next 24 hours anyway for the sin of "not keeping on topic."

I also think that Jason's recommendation that a person should learn their car's performance characteristics prior to modifying it is, in general, a reasonable one. It may not really apply to you, as none of us particularly know your skill level and experience in motorsports.

It's just not very helpful to only say:

Oh, I have plenty of ideas, but you shouldn't be worrying about those right now, you should simply be focusing on keeping your car on the road.

-anyway- back on topic:

Ultimately you asked a question... how to get more performance.

My guess is that few users of this forum have much experience working within the framework of competition rules, so I don't know that you'll get very effective suggestions. Many of the folks here are street performance guys, "cheap mod" geeks, or 1/4" mile wannabes. That's all cool, I pretty much fall into some of those categories, too.

That being said, here are some ideas that may help:

-Check with other competitors in the rally community. Find out what's been done and who has done it. The EJ22T has been around for a long time, so you don't really have to reinvent the wheel, just copy the guys who were successful.

-Increase the boost- all else being stock you should be able to go to 11psi, more if you add other supporting mods like an intercooler. I assume that you already have a boost gauge.

-Look into the ECU piggyback called Perfect Power sold by Rallitek. I don't know if anyone has a EJ22t tuned and running on one yet, but they say it works, and I think it deserves some research.

-Can you use a bigger turbo? There is certainly power to gain there.

-Can you change heads? Search here for good info in posts by Matt Monson regarding heads and cams.

Now, I won't go so far as to say that you should "learn how to drive your car" before you do any mods, but my (limited) experience with rally leads me to suggest that mods that increase reliability and handling will pay off better than "go fast" mods.

Oh yeah, make sure you have plenty of really good tires.

"balancing" requires 100% complete rebuild.

multi angle valve job -yes
polishing and porting - yes
porting turbo -yes
piggyback, only if going for high boost

It all gives more power.

But the amount of power versus cost is probably pretty high considering you are doing this all on stock "small power" parts.

Better heads and bigger turbo, full exhaust threatment and a TMIC will serve you best.

Stock pistons are fine.

There, is that helpful?

There is a reason why i'm so persistent on simply getting the engine built and NOTHING more at this time for you dude. Because half of the suggestions you've been given are worth more monitarily then they're worth on stage.

I've spent the better half of a decade studing rules and looking for loopholes, it's part of what i see as my job as a codriver. I'm not the BEST, and certainly i haven't been doing this the longest; but sure as hell, i've been doing this longer then you have. And as an experienced rallyist, who you've asked for suggestion my answer is thus, and always will be, to you on your freshman year of performance rally: Its better to spend money on tires, then it is on engines. You'll get more performance per mile on brand new, REALLY good tires, then you'll ever get on a few hundred bucks in engine mods. If you want reliability mods: go with stock, that's the most reliable you'll ever see THAT engine.

Allow me to itemize:

The engine Barrett had in the car was run for a period with no water in it and then replaced with a worn out engine with low compression in two cylinders prior to me buying it. I'm going to assemble a new engine that will have a good blend of power and reliability.

Yes, I know the engine was run that way. We were ahead of barrett on the road that day, but the stages were run twice and I talked to him at the ATC of the stage the second time through. In summary, i know WHY it is you're doing trying to do what you're doing.

Remember what's going on here - at the root, you're asking for racing suggestions from people who are for the most part not A) familiar with your santioning body and B) are not familiar with the rules run therein.

-Can you use a bigger turbo? There is certainly power to gain there.

Case in point is this question. No, he cannot use a bigger turbo.

-Can you change heads?

Another good point, no he cannot use different heads.

mods that increase reliability

That's why PGT is what it IS. ---Production--- GT. Built to production specs with minor variations.

RA Bulletin #8, posted 14, Jan 2005.
Subject: piggyback Engine controllers in PGT.
http://www.rally-america.com/info/2005_ ... 05_008.pdf
This bulletin allows you to change the fuel into the engine. Also highlights that you may only use a manual boost controller to change boost pressure; which negates dougs' suggestion:

piggyback, only if going for high boost

basically, you can use an S-AFC from APEXi, but not an AVC-R.

Please now, open your Rally America rulebooks to page 86 and start reading. 10.2.c.8 begins your homework.
"any part damaged through wear or accident may only be replaced by an OEM part identical to the one damaged... All original equipment must be intact and and unmodified according to the manufacturer's specifications unless modifications are specifically authorized in the following paragraphs..."

uhh, well that about sums it up for what's "LEGAL" in PGT for engine work, basically, nothing. Since you've specified you're going to be racing in "PGT," that denotes Rally America rulesets and we could stop right there, but since I'm being cheerful and helpful today, lets move on to NASA. Please open your NASA Rallysport General regulations to page 44 where we begin to read about their Stock Classes, which you will try to fit in under what's called Super Stock 2.

3.2.4.6: Normal work and repair
3.2.4.7: Authorized modifications.. specifically the first line "All items, which are not specifically allowed or referred to as "free" below, must be of original manufacturers specifications..."
3.2.4.7.q: Manufacturer's specifications: Any machining for adjustment must meet the manufacturer's specifications including those for tolerances.

In summary for nasa: Build your engine to manufacturer's tolerances.

Now then, having written all that and reread it for clarity; does what i suggest make sense?

Very helpful, Jason, thanks. At this point I have certainly learned something.

Interesting stuff

Toomuch,
Even before Jason's last post, I could see where he was going with this. Running in a production class is pretty restrictive in what they will allow.

The modifications you are talking about making to your engine will be good for 10-20hp, at best. That's where the $$$ per gain comes in. In an open class car, if becomes worthwhile to start doing that stuff because you can also change your camshaft, turbo and run an intercooler. But given the class you have chosen to run in, save your pennies. What you would spend on all the extra engine work trying to eek out a few extra ponies will come in handy when mid-season you crack a header, or bend a control arm or something along those lines, that always happen with racing.

I think that was Jason's intent. You were just so bent that his advice was counter to your desires that you took it personally and felt the need to act like a child and start calling him names....

ultrasonic wrote:toomuch:

-Look into the ECU piggyback called Perfect Power sold by Rallitek. I don't know if anyone has a EJ22t tuned and running on one yet, but they say it works, and I think it deserves some research.

.

Todd (-k-) is running a Perfect Power SMT6 in his 1993 SS...He hasn't done a whole lot with it yet, but it is definately a worthwhile setup for the 22t.

rebuild the engine to stock specs. you can change NOTHING in PGT.

take the money you would have spent and go buy a spare tranny, spare control arms, and lots of wheels and some new tires.

the new tires are worth way more on the stages than 10-20HP at the crank.

555BCTurbo wrote:

ultrasonic wrote:toomuch:

-Look into the ECU piggyback called Perfect Power sold by Rallitek. I don't know if anyone has a EJ22t tuned and running on one yet, but they say it works, and I think it deserves some research.

.

Todd (-k-) is running a Perfect Power SMT6 in his 1993 SS...He hasn't done a whole lot with it yet, but it is definately a worthwhile setup for the 22t.

Still debating this with my smt6. It adjust tiimng, it runs my boost control solenoid pretty well. It's kinda working for fueling. I have to completely change the MAF inorder to run more than 8psi. I have done everything else to fix my prblems. New BPV, new 3bar map sensor. everthing is now in order. No boost leaks or anything. What really bugs me is that Sean @ rallitek no longer answers my emails (its not like I am overloading them, 3 within a month-no replies) and gives vague half-answers when I ask I a question in a public forum, like nasioc. just my .02.

bmxpunk wrote:Still debating this with my smt6. It adjust tiimng, it runs my boost control solenoid pretty well. It's kinda working for fueling. I have to completely change the MAF inorder to run more than 8psi. I have done everything else to fix my prblems. New BPV, new 3bar map sensor. everthing is now in order. No boost leaks or anything. What really bugs me is that Sean @ rallitek no longer answers my emails (its not like I am overloading them, 3 within a month-no replies) and gives vague half-answers when I ask I a question in a public forum, like nasioc. just my .02.

I'm looking to go this route. How much tweaking did you have to do with the boost control solenoid function? Would you be willing to share the maps you have?

I understand your feelings regarding Sean. All the times I've talked with him about it, he plays it down like it's no big deal to do all this stuff. Just something I'm not 100% at ease with....especially being here, and him up there.

Thats the thing he has a ton of expeience with it.

I am still working on all of the maps. They really arent too hard for the boost control.

I am still working them out and I think it is going well. your are getting the smt6 right? If so and I have my map perfected I will be happy to share it. I am getting closer. I had the boost at about 11psi, and my MAF seems maxed out all of the time so my car didnt run well so I had to turn it back down.

Are you using the stock solenoid? Is it just two wires? I am using the perrin ECBS in conjunction with my smt6.

The only issue I see is that you guys are running different ECU's...

no, it would work because it's a piggy back. It just couldn't be used to control boost.

Jason I am controling boost with it. Maybe you should research it a little before speaking. The perfect power can run on extra solenoid/injector.

It would depend if Josh is going to run the boost controller straight from the pp like I am