legacycentral bbs

First off about my build:

2.5 stock short block.
2.2 heads with reground cams, more duration and more lift
2.2 manifold injectors, and everything else. Stock ecu
12:1 c/r (93 octane fuel)

future mods: exhaust, intake


some things I have learned:

e-manage isnt good for our cars. (?)
s-afc works on our cars (but how well?)
pp6 is great but not cheap

what I want:

I want to be able to tune fairly well, and not have to run to the dyno to get retuned for changes. In other words I want to understand it well enough and have the equipment to tune afrs, and maybe timing?


I think that the best setup would be a PP6 and a wideband O2, neither of which I want to spring for. I would like to run a s-afc, and use vrg's scan tool for tuning. This would be the cheapest setup, but hopefully effective. Im wondering what people think, and wether or not I will need to tune the timing.

1) I think you got it backwards with PP6's: they are very cheap for an EMS, but I don't think anyone ever got a Legacy turbo with a PP6 sorted out and working properly.

2) You basically NEED a dyno to tune, regardless of how much understanding you have, and regardless of what other equipment you have. You're not going to end up with anything good unless you get a real tune from a professional who uses equipment that can tell him the affects of what he tweaks (i.e. a dyno).

3) vrg's scan tool doesn't provide much information useful to tuning that I can think of. Maybe you were thinking about using the air/fuel ratio reading? Problem with that is that stock O2 sensor will rail because it is narrow band. You'd need a nice complete wideband system for that. Maybe you were thinking about the knock detection? The stock ECU doesn't even reliably report knock to VRG's scan tool when the car is under load.

Sorry, I think it's kind of all-or-nothing. I'm not sure how to get any sort of EMS without really paying for it.

I figured by looking at fuel trim and O2 reading I could get a basic idea of afr and go from there. I do have a dyno shop about 2 hours away, im just not sure it would be worth it without wideband and with only a s-afc. But then again I dont really know thats why I am asking. I know these engines run fairly well on stock ecus, but I was hoping to tune to some capacity. Thanks

Dyno shops use their own A/F meters

At least, reputable ones do.

Yeah, like he said you shouldn't need your own wideband. Most people don't have them, the tuner generally takes care of that for you one way or another.

You won't get any useful info from a narrow band. Anytime you get on the throttle, a narrow band is basically going to tell you "richer than stoich" - doesn't matter if you're running so lean that your engine is about to melt, or so rich that you're having trouble even getting combustion - it'll still just say "richer than stoich".

Ok so do you guys think a s-afc or e-manage along with getting tuned at the shop be a good setup? or a waste of money? Im wondering about the e-manage everything I have read about consists of "its too slow for subaru ecus" but I know that Matt Monson used one on his friends car.

THe emanage has worked on my friends car.

the pp6... work, function, tune.....they are all relative terms.....