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... what is it?
looks like a buggy motor

Look like a flat-4 with a turbo/supercharger combination . . . aircraft style.

That does look like a supercharger.

aircooled porsche or volkswagen motor? I think I see 8 plug wires

thats a cooling fan, not a supercharger.

Looks like a working model flat four. Or is it a real size and just looks small. Definatly a VW motor or porsche, but since its 4cyl, im leaning toward a VW.

-Brian

I'm thinking that maybe it's some early Porsche race engine.

I'm pretty sure you're right about the cooling fan The carburetors are each to the side of it, and it would be a bit bulkier.

Could be from a Porsche 550 Spyder.

Subtle wrote:Could be from a Porsche 550 Spyder.

The old timer is the closest. That picture isn't the actual engine I have here in the shop because the boss doesn't want me posting it on the web, but what we have here is a 692/2 Carrera GS four cam motor. And while that's not quite as rare or unique as a spyder engine (which is what's in the picture I posted) given the total production numbers of around 3000 4-cam engines ever made, it's a pretty rare treat to have one of any variant in the shop. I've been drooling over it all afternoon. These engines are truly pieces of industrial art and have a level of craftsmanship that you don't see in cars today. And unlike a standard Porsche pushrod engine, they won't give up the ghost above 6000 rpms (that was for you Subtle, subtle, aren't I. ). This engine likes to rev, and isn't happy if it isn't going more than 4000 rpm, with peak HP at 6500 and redline a bit more than 1000 rpms higher...

And for those remarking about the "supercharger" that is both how a Porsche or VW air cooled engine is cooled, as well as how the generator gets a charge to keep the battery going.

Anyways, I am a bit of a giddy school boy this afternoon. This in only the second one I have ever seen on a stand and not in a car all covered up in tin and whatnot....

Thanks Matt---as I recall (in real time) those eary 4-cams had roller bearings, and in order to change the plugs the half shafts had to be removed, or something as bad.

Porsche, then, with their small displacement engines at Le Mans were known as the "giant killers" until they made monster engines and became giants.

Never seen a pic of that type of engine out of the car.

However, I cant help but add that in the early 1960s and in a number of events the Alfa Giuliettas with 1300cc were beating the non-4-cam Porsches displacing 1600 cc.

Couldn't resist the alfa burn, could you?

And you are correct, the 4 cams are such a maintenance nightmare that many early Carrera and Spyder owners tossed the engine in favour of the more standard 356 engines. These 4 cams used to get tossed in the corner of the shops and sold to boy racers for $400-500 each. There's a couple of shop owners who have "accidentally" gotten rich just because they sat on 4 or 5 of these engines for 40 years and then figured out what they were and sold them in the "new" market.

To this day, Porsche maintains a single mechanic, at the rennwerks, who is there to rebuild 4 cam engines. He does 1 a month, and has been with the company since 1964. They take upwards of 200 hours to rebuild. There's a guy named Bill Doyle who runs a shop up in Jackson Hole who specializes in them. It's silly expensive to have him go through one of them for you, but realistically there's only a couple dozen people left in the world who know how to go through one of them from the ground up...

Good info++

wow. That's just gorgeous.

That is truly awesome Matt. I haven't ever seen a 4 cam carrera motor in person at all, and you have one in the shop!!!


I did, however, get to see Rod Emory's 901 4 cylinder engine he built at the Parts Obsolete campout last year...that was kinda neat!!




So...what is it ending up in?!?

Rod Emory? He buys stuff from our shop from time to time.

We don't know where it's going to end up. It's owned by a gentleman in Guatemala who has asked us to sell it for him. We have a couple of prospects on it, with one very serious buyer.

This same gentleman has a NOS 962 longblock in a warehouse in Denver. Once we place the 4 cam, that engine may be next...

industrial art indeed.
how are the cams driven on the spyder motor, are the cam chains in the center of the motor like many motorcycles? Im guessing thats the case as I see what looks to be a cam chain housing on that valve cover.
tell us a bit about those carbs?
and how much does one of those go for?

Actually, it is driven by a complex system of bevelled gears and shafts. It's really hard to explain. It's a big part of why they take so long to build. Timing one of these engines is not something most shadetree mechanics are capable of doing. I will try and find some blown up pictures to make it more clear.

The 911 engines are designed much like what you describe. The standard 356 engines are a pushrod with a center gear like a VW. The 4-cam Carrera motor is truly unique and unduplicated anywhere in automotive history.

The carbs on it are sandcast Weber 44m carbs. They used to be pretty common, but now all you can get are the Brazilian Webers that just aren't the same as the old Italian ones.

The engine that we have is going to be sold for around $50,000. It really varies with respect to condition and specification. One of the old racing engines can often fetch $100,000 or more. But the engine we have is "just" from a '59 Carrara GS. We sold another one last year that was all incomplete and in pieces and needed to be gone through and it went for $32,500. That's about the bottom end of the scale...

Matt

What happened to the instal of a Subaru engine into your 914

Subtle wrote:Matt

What happened to the instal of a Subaru engine into your 914

Two things happened. I decided that the 914 I had was too nice of an original car to do that do it. And, I stumbled on the 911 for the same money I had in the 914. So, I sold the 914 to one of our mechanics and he's putting it back together properly. And it meant a lot to him to get his hands on a nice one. About 10 years ago, he built a really nice '74 914 2.0l for his wife. And then about 4 years ago they got divorced. She didn't really care about the car, but she cared about screwing Jim. So, she made sure she got it in the divorce. Ever since then, he's wanted to build another one, so now he's got his chance. He's making it look a lot like one of the '74 Special Edition cars with green rockers and trim. But he's leaving the wheels silver and not quite going all the way. It looks really hot...

the header is pretty amazing and unique as well with that flat collector.
that is some cool stuff matt. sounds like the spyder motor truly is one unique motor. Is the bevel gear driven top end a product of porsche's racing development where cost/complexity was no object or? it does sound like one smooth setup when compared to pushrods but pretty complicated as well. seems like it would be a reliable setup than timing chains(gear drives for v8's and all that) but hey.
couple more questions
HP in standard tune? race tune?
what do they rev to?
CR?
stats on the heads?
sorry, its too cool not to ask.

There was a huge variance in them, and over the +/-10year production of them they changed substantially and got continually better. The early ones were 1500's and put out around 95hp. But that was in a street driven car. The race cars were more like 130hp in the earliest form. By then end, all displacments in racing applications were seeing 100hp/l. So, the 1700 was 170hp, the 1800 was 180hp. The engine we have here is a '58 and is 130hp from 1700cc. It makes peak hp at 6500rpm, which is average for them. They all can rev up over 7000rpm and the race ones regularly saw 8000rpm, and as would be expected had their peak HP a little bit higher.

Again, CR varied. It was anywhere from the high 8's to mid 10's. The heads were 2 valves per head, but twin plug ignition. As for the origins of the designs, I couldn't tell you. The engine was designed by Fuhrman, and I imagine a google search would reveal a lot...

I recall some comment about not lugging the engine at low rpm--the threat was that it pounded the roller bearings.

Was this folk lore or factual

Subtle wrote:I recall some comment about not lugging the engine at low rpm--the threat was that it pounded the roller bearings.

Was this folk lore or factual

Factual. This is part of why they were terrible around town engines. They really did want to be wrung out and revved...

awww yes the alfa romeos, zee germans ya.

NICO I WRX U wrote:awww yes the alfa romeos, zee germans ya.

Alfa Romeos are Italian...