legacycentral bbs

So I got my pistons in finally and start to put on the right side head. Following haynes exactly I keep pulling to get to 137 ft lbs. And then I hear a click - but it wasnt the torque wrench - it was the damn bolt....

The bolt didnt break cleanly either - it broke in a slant so a drill bit wont really bite - I was so pissed I had an urge to just torque the other bolts down and forget about that one bolt, but the blood went back into my head and I decided that was not such a great idea.

What are my options to get that sucker out of the block?

Whats the take on reusing the head gasket? Its a cometic and it was expensive...

Its almost 4 in the morning - Im going to shower - hopefully someone can answer before I wake up tomorrow. Tomorrow is my only day off for another week and Id really like to get the heads on...

Take it to the machine shop and have them yank out the bolt.

Is it broken inside the block so that there's nothing at all to bite even with a vice grip? Since it works on stretching, the fact that the head has snapped off will mean the bolt won't be nearly as tight in there as the final torque value you had it cranked to so any piece you can grab that won't break off can serve to maybe get it out or at least enough to maybe grind it flatter to fit an extractor. Otherwise I'd take it to a machine shop as suggested.

The bolt snapped off in the threads portion. It was late last night, but its definately not grabbable. I cant even get a pinky on it...

It appears that with the cometic head gasket an ej22 block and dohc heads, that the ej25 head bolts arent long enough and also that the ej22 head bolts are far too large. - I think this is what caused the head bolts to snap. That or my crappy torque wrench. But the torque wrench seems to work decently.

Thanks for the responses!!!!

Any idea what the deal is with the head bolts being too long/short?
What is everyone else using who has dohc heads? And what torque #s are you using?

This is why you go to ARP head studs.

I didn't know there was a difference in head-bolt length.

Did you reuse headbolts? You gotta be careful when doing that.

Also, if you don't torque the bolts properly, snappy snap they go.

I was reusing head bolts. I was following the haynes manual torque procedure exactly....

137ft lb? Please tell me you are joking. When following the factory procedure (which does not use a final torque-to number) you will see them test at 85ft lb+/- There is either something really wrong with your manual or with your attention to detail.

For future reference, Legacy777 hosts a complete copy of the EJ22T FSM on his mainexperience website. There's no reason to trust an aftermarket publication even though I do own both the Chiltons and the Haynes for this car. I have never seen that 137 number in either of them...

This incident has NOTHING to do with reusing bolts. It has to do with tightening a bolt significantly past it's rated strength...

I can photocopy my manual for you. The haynes manual specifically says 137 ft lbs for non turbo and 160 something for turbo.

And then the last step is 90 degrees past the step above.

Danny

gto7419 wrote: Following haynes exactly I keep pulling to get to 137 ft lbs.

thats what my engine puts out, not what you tighten the bolts too
i think its says 132INCH-lb in my book (BC EJ22), maybe you miss took INCH lb for FOOT lb
it says 168INCH ln for EJ22T

Yea, Matt is correct. I think it's like 85ft-lbs, then 90 degrees, in pattern, then another 90 or something like that. It's different between the years, but 137 is DEFINATELY wrong. I didn't even notice that in your original post.

Well my haynes manual says 137 and my chilton manual says 27ft lbs and then 2 steps of 80-90 degrees for all bolts. What is going on here?

Murphy wrote:

gto7419 wrote: Following haynes exactly I keep pulling to get to 137 ft lbs.

thats what my engine puts out, not what you tighten the bolts too
i think its says 132INCH-lb in my book (BC EJ22), maybe you miss took INCH lb for FOOT lb
it says 168INCH ln for EJ22T

Ok, I think I found my problem here.... This is really annoying - that bolt is really in there - I got it moving earlier and it was coming out, but it got stuck.... It might have to go to the machine shop tomorrow....

Im going to check out Legacy777's ej22t fsm - hopefully I can get the proper procedure for after I get this damn bolt out....

Can I reuse the head gasket or should I really get another one?

It appears brand new...

When in doubt, use a new gasket. I wouldn't want to reuse a headgasket, no matter how "new" it appeared to be.

Cheaper and easier to buy a new gasket, than to try and reuse one of questionable integrity.

I think it says 180 inch lbs. I remember cause I misread it too and snapped one off in the block. It came free around 160 ft lbs. But yeah, the measurements in haynes go from foot lbs to inch lbs and it makes it tricky if you're not paying attention.

gto7419 wrote:Well my haynes manual says 137 and my chilton manual says 27ft lbs and then 2 steps of 80-90 degrees for all bolts. What is going on here?

My Haynes manual says 132 in-lbs for n/a and 168 in-lbs for turbo as step 6. Steps 7 and 8 are both tighten another 90 degrees.

Just for clarity, I meant is was +/-85ft/lb after you did the 90 and 90 song and dance. I am talking about actual tightness if you were to put a torque wrench on it and "test" it. I do know engine builders that just tighten to a certain torque in 2 series of tightenings, but that's not what I was talking about above.

Here's from the SOHC EJ25 FSM:

Tighten the cylinder head bolts.
(1) Apply a coat of engine oil to washers and
bolt threads.
(2) Tighten all bolts to 29 N.m (3.0 kgf-m, 22 ft-
Ib) in alphabetical sequence.
Then tighten all bolts to 69 N.m (7.0 kgf-m, 51 ft-
Ib) in alphabetical sequence.
(3) Back off all bolts by 180" first; back them off
by 180" again.
(4) Tighten the bolts (a) and (b) to 34 N-m (3.5
kgf-m, 25 ft-lb).
(5) Tighten the bolts (c), (d), (e) and (f) to 15
N.m (1.5 kgf-m, 11 ft-lb).
(6) Tighten all bolts by 80 to 90" in alphabetical
sequence.

The actual numbers vary from engine to engine by a couple of ft/lb but it doesn't really matter that much if you are higher by a ft/lb or two. But being a few dozen over is a bad situation.

And I would probably resuse the HG. And I have under similar circumstances. Because it hasn't heat cycled and is still clean I wouldn't personally worry about it. But that's just me. To each their own and just remember that we all take responsibility for our own decisions around here.[/b]

Im totally screwed - the bolt is stuck in the block and Ive damaged probably 4 of the top threads in the hole... I highly doubt a machine shop will be able to pull the broken piece out without throwing the holeblock on a mill and milling the hole thing out and inserting a helicoil...

I have a mill at home and would have put the block on there, but I dont have any end mills long enough to reach the bolt.

Im friendly with a local shop - Im going to take the block there to see if they can do anything for me...

If not I guess Im buying another freakin ej22 block.

I feel like a retard, and I hate Haynes - WHY WHY WHY would you mix ft lbs and in lbs... So stupid - but in the end, its my fault..... Really pissed off here...

you have a mill at home? Lucky.
might just be worth it to find another crappy old ej22 somewhere could end up being cheaper than a machine shop.
screwed up threads could mean a whole host of problems once you get the motor going but maybe a knowledgable machinist will have something different to say. keep in mind though that there arent a ton of machinists out there who really know EJ's inside and out.

Damaging the top 4 threads is not my biggest concern... If I could get the rest of the bolt out and thats all the damage - I would use it as is... Its the fact that MORE damage is going to have to be done to get it out. I think Im going to have to find another empty case.

Danny

There might not neccisarily be more damage if a good machinist gets ahold of it.

I have had frozen bolts milled out in such a way that the original block threads are not touched. If the mill is centered correctly then you can bore down and take out the main shaft of the bolt. After that the threads of the bolt can be pulled out. They will "unwind" kind of like pulling out an old Helicoil. The block threads should be basically untouched.

I admit I've never attempted this on a Block/head bolt. I've done this on turbo/manifold bolts with very good success.

I drilled out the old bolt and rethreaded it for a vw head bolt as a temp solution until I had a machine shop fix it.

So you have an N/A block? You can have it for $20 plus shipping. That's about a scrap aluminum price. This is just the block halves so the weight isn't much.

Still, I'd give the machine shop a chance first.

Thanks guys - Im just really in a bad mood today - I didnt get much sleep and I've been dealing with the guy who hit my car - which is turning out to be a HUGE pain - much like this stubborn bolt.

Im going to take it to local shop and see if he can do anything. If not, I can always rethread the block - what size is the VW bolt?

I appreciate the offer evolution - If I need it Ill pm you!!!

Id want to try to save the $60 on honing and all my time installing bearings/crank/pistons....

I don't remember what size the vw thread was, it was just something I had laying around to do the job. It worked really well though and I didn't have any problems with it.

Went to the machine shop with a 6 pack and my buddy down there said he could get it out no problem - he said to just get him a pack of cancer sticks and we'd be even. So for 10 bucks Im going to have my shortblock back on tuesday.

On top of that, I didnt have the right size die to thread one of my longer ej22 head bolts back to replace the shorter ej25 one I snapped - so hes going to rethread that one back and chop it off at the proper length.

So, hopefully all will go well and I can get my heads back on this weekend!!!