legacycentral bbs

Silicone hoses, to be exact.
the hoses i purchase will be used to mount a slanted version II wrx TMIC onto my 94 Legacy SS.

this is the one i bought:
http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=30658

i will need a coupler for the TMIC to TB and from the turbo to the charge pipe.

obvioulsly not all hoses are equal. so what makes for a good silicone hose? regardless of name brand, what specs should i be looking at?

is this "good" enough?

http://www.siliconeintakes.com/category ... 00ac302fb0
3-ply or 4-ply fabric reinforced silicone
Heat tolerance: -40° to 392° Fahrenheit
Burst Pressure: 200 PSI
Working Pressure: 50 PSI
Wall Size: 4 mm - 5 mm

then there are these for about twice as much:
http://www.turbohoses.com/Transition.htm
2-ply fiberglass reinforced silicone,
.110 wall thickness.
Operating temperatures of -65f to 600f

then there is the samco stuff:

cant find the specs listed as easily. but what i have found it seems that they have the same wall thickness and burst pressures seem to be right around 200 for the 3" diameter hoses. prices are similar to the turbohoses stuff. and the max temp of the samco hoses is similar to the cheaper hoses from silicone intakes.

i am assuming that the fiberglass allows for a thinner hose that is as strong as the thicker hose that uses a poly fabric to reinforce the silicone.

what is the temp of the turbo outlet?

what is the ideal material to use for the turbo to IC connector.

i am not really seeing any reason to purchase the more expensive samco hoses over the less expensive hoses from silicone intakes. so tell me what i am missing.

seems like the biggest reason the samcos cost more is that they are made in the UK and have to be imported.

i am new to this stuff so i am sure i am missing something. i want to make sure i get the right stuff but i dont want to pay more than necessary.

i dont plan on ever running the boost high enough to hit the fuel cut as i dont want to get that far into the upgrades but i do want more than 9 pounds of non intercooled boost.

probably wont go above stock boost for quite some time anyway. i really just think that a turbocharged car should have an IC regardless of boost levels. leaving them of of the US legacy turbos was probably the only oversight subaru made when sending us these cars.

cliff notes:

what makes the samco and turbo hoses silicone hoses worth the added cost?

are the less expensive hoses inferior in quality given my application and goals?

FWIW, you get what you pay for generally. If I had the spare change I'd go with the better quality hose. It'll last longer if nothing else. My .02.

Tleg93 wrote:FWIW, you get what you pay for generally. If I had the spare change I'd go with the better quality hose. It'll last longer if nothing else. My .02.

it is the "generally" part i am trying to figure out.

i have a feeling that the import costs and the "name" account for a large difference in the price between the samco hoses and the silicone intakes hoses.

i want to figure out what the quality difference is.

also i would much rather screw up cuting up a 16 dollar hose rather than a 40 dollar hose.

you bring up a good point about durability.

do the samco hoses last that much longer?

I have received several pieces of the siliconeintakes.com hoses and they are seemingly very well made. (stiff, very smooth in and out, and clean)


As you noted, the "cheap" hoses have the virtually the same specifications as the more costly Samco hoses (as much info as you can find on the Samco anyhow...). The "cheap" hoses have a working pressure of 50psi, and a burst pressure of 200psi and 4-5mm walls (again, as you stated). Since none of these companies will give out detailed information on the actual grade of silicone they are using, then it's mostly he said-she said.

I personally think that the Samco hoses are no better, and you're paying for a name and the marketing that goes with it.

If you are looking for a non-standard piece, like the intricate wrx intake hose, then the Samco might be the only choice, but as far as straight couplers, bends, reducers go why spend more? (especially if you're running <20psi). And I believe that people have issues with ALL hoses when running high boost levels - see Innovative's posts (I think it was him) about the 4ply collapsing under vacuum as an example.


Anyway, people can pay what they will. I'll take the hose for 1/4 the price, thank you (without company logo's to boot). Clamped with nice t-bolts of course.

Hell, my turbo has been running with what looks like a freaking radiator hose on the outlet for over 3 years! 12-13psi daily and exposed to a decent amount of oil too....


-Chad

It's all in the quality. SAMCO hoses are great. They are 4-ply silicone, and they can handle high heat and oil.

Less expensive, and lower quality hoses, tend to break down when exposed to high heat or oil. This is fine for some applications, but most underhood applications would benefit from a better quality hose.

We get all of our silicone hoses from TurboXS (who gets them from Turbohoses or somewhere), and we've used them on applications over 800whp and over 40psi. I can't recall a single problem with them.

I HAVE seen cheaper hoses split, crack, and deform or melt after a few weeks of use.

I used a radiator hose on the turbo outlet for a while. It held, but it also deformed quickly, and was VERY brittle after a few years. I was able to rip it apart with my bare hands. I'm a buff dude, but that's ridiculous.

GREDDY hoses are very low quality, from what I've seen. I wouldn't use them.

Exactly, it's all in the quality (not necessarily price).

The siliconeintake.com hose has the same ply as the SAMCO (3 or 4 depending on the Dia) and the same stated heat range. Oil resistance is unknown for either really, but I can only assume that the Samco stuff works great (as it's heavily used) - I can not say if the less expensive hose is any worse.... although a basic quality of silicone is that it is chemically resistant.

I fully expect that the radiator hose that is on my turbo's outlet is damn near ready to fall apart. It's not meant for such an application - I agree completely. I'll see if I'm buff enough to tear it appart with my own hands

I guess my point is that there can certainly be GOOD silicone hoses that don't cost an arm and a leg... NOT that all less expensive hoses are good (or even adequate). Single ply 1.5mm wall silicone hose would not be recommended.


I emailed the siliconeintake people to see if they could weigh in on their quality vs. Samco - we'll what they have to say. I'll also try to get some closeup pics of the pieces I have

BAC5.2 wrote:It's all in the quality. SAMCO hoses are great. They are 4-ply silicone, and they can handle high heat and oil.

Less expensive, and lower quality hoses, tend to break down when exposed to high heat or oil. This is fine for some applications, but most underhood applications would benefit from a better quality hose.

We get all of our silicone hoses from TurboXS (who gets them from Turbohoses or somewhere), and we've used them on applications over 800whp and over 40psi. I can't recall a single problem with them.

I HAVE seen cheaper hoses split, crack, and deform or melt after a few weeks of use.

I used a radiator hose on the turbo outlet for a while. It held, but it also deformed quickly, and was VERY brittle after a few years. I was able to rip it apart with my bare hands. I'm a buff dude, but that's ridiculous.

GREDDY hoses are very low quality, from what I've seen. I wouldn't use them.

so we can rule out greddy and stuff w/less than 3 plys.

have you physically seen anything from silicone intakes and compared them to the turbohoses and samco hoses?

I use the stuff you can buy at any heavy diesel supply place...I have no idea on the specs, but I have seen it hold up to over 28 psi on a 2.3 Turbo Ford application, and my intercooler to throttle body hose is made out of it...

And a foot of it costs about the same as one of those couplers...it just doesn't look as pretty, but big fuckin' deal...at least in my estimation

So, Jon from siliconeintakes.com responded to my questions but instead of emailing me all the details he posted an article on their web site

http://www.siliconeintakes.com/intercooler-hoses.php


Here is the text for the lazy at heart:

The Business of Intercooler Hoses and Quality
A customer recently asked me to compare the quality between our intercooler hoses and Samco brand hoses.

Intercooler hoses are a very simple product. Our products, like Samco hoses, use genuine silicone with 3-4 (size-dependant) fabric reinforcement layers. Quality is high and consistent for both companies, and our products have virtually identical specifications. This does beg the question of why our parts are so much less expensive when compared to Samco and other suppliers. There are dozens of forum threads dedicated to this topic and I hope to address the fallacy that cheap=junk.

There are several reasons that Samco hoses (and many other brands) cost 2-5 times as much as what we sell at www.siliconeintakes.com, and none of them are quality.

One reason is because of our varying distribution systems. Your typical auto part manufacturer pushes their products through a traditional supply chain. This basically means they sell their product to a distributor, and then their distributor sells the product to a retailer, and then the retailer sells the product to the end user. Each one of these companies, the manufacturer, distributor, and retailer, must make a profit, in addition to paying for all of their overhead. What we do is sell the products directly to the end user. This also means we only have one warehouse full of parts - our parts don't stack up in the manufacturer's warehouse, the distributors warehouse, and the retailers floor space, requiring capital and costing money.

Another reason is because of competitive advantage in the area of manufacture. Our parts are manufactured in China. It did take us a while to find a factory that could produce high quality silicone products at a correct price point; and there is lots of junk manufactured in China. However, if you know where to look (or just look everywhere like we did) you can find factories in China that produce very high quality parts. Very plain and simply, it costs much much less to manufacture the exact same part in China compared to the US or the UK. And for anyone who says this hurts the US economy, I strongly recommend you read an economics book, and then contemplate where 98% of the stuff you own was manufactured.

Another reason we are priced so much lower than some of our competitors is because of marketing. Many people, unfortunately, think that a higher price means higher quality. These are the same people who bash value internet retailers in forums and coined the term 'ebay junk'. (Yes there is lots of 'junk' on EBay but there is also plenty of great stuff.) Many auto parts manufacturers intentionally keep their prices much higher than necessary just to create the illusion of quality. There is a concept called 'price elasticity of demand' and it is related to the optimum pricing level to achieve maximum profits. For example, if you lower the price on something by $1, will you sell enough more to make up for the lower profit in volume? Well in some markets, cars and auto parts included because prestige is so important, the elasticity curve has two or more peaks. You can make optimal profit by selling at a fair profit margin and a low price with high volume, like we do. Or, you can make optimal profit by selling at a gigantic markup with low volume like some of our competitors do. It sounds crazy to me but it sure is true - some people actually will buy something JUST BECAUSE it costs 3 times as much! I don't want to sound like I am bashing our competitors here - business is business. If you find a profitable niche selling the same thing we sell for three times as much, go for it.

The final reason I will talk about is efficiency. This is the most important reason that we can sell quality parts at low prices. Your traditional manufacturer has a huge payroll of salesmen who are paid to force their products through the distribution channels, by either pushing (getting distributors to buy or retailers to put them on the shelves) or pulling (getting end users to want the products). We acknowledged from the start that most people who need our product KNOW they need our product and will seek it out at the best value. Therefore we invest little in advertising, which allows us to cut prices. We also handle incoming orders like a big auto parts robot. Our order fulfillment system is fast and efficient and we have just reached a new level of accuracy. Every possible step involved with our business is automated. Phone orders are strongly discouraged, and this truly pisses some people off. I'm sorry, and I understand your point, but if I had someone talk to every customer we have for 10 minutes on the phone, I would have to raise prices by over 20%. We only accept Paypal and credit cards. We only ship through USPS. We don't make custom parts. We don't sponsor anyone. We try to handle customer service through email whenever possible. All of these things combined leave us with a streamlined operation that quite simply offers you the best prices on the best parts.

There is my incredibly long winded and detailed response to a seemingly simple question. Many people were probably expecting a technical reason that are products are less expensive - however such a reason does not exist. It's just good business and I hope to bring the same model to all kinds of stuff in the future, so keep the orders rolling in, and many thanks to our loyal customers!

Jon

www.siliconeintakes.com

it mimics exactly what I was trying to express. I'll try to get some pics of the hoses that I have received soon, but my wife just took the home computer on a trip so it could take a little while.

wow, such a common Q they wrote a paper on it. Go figure...