legacycentral bbs

Not sure if anyone remembers but about 1.5 months ago I blew a headgasket in my 1990 Legacy L AWD... Well...school's out for the semester and I'm working full-time again so the money...she ain't so scarce, eh?

I'm trying to figure out what to do as for a suspension setup for my Bluebaru. GR-2's with stock springs would be good for simplicity. I've also considered AGX's off a 92-94 with group-N tophats and stock springs. My third considered option is a set of Tein Flex coilovers with the EDFC thingie (yes, uber-technical).

My goal is a well-sorted car. Little or no body roll in the corners. Ability to soak up bumps without getting bouncy over rough roads or gravel. I also want to stick near stock ride-height.

Currently the car is bone-stock. I'm hoping to get some 16" Leg-GT wheels, strut-tower bars front and rear, and possibly upgraded swaybars.

Another question while I'm at it...the Whiteline Anti-lift Kit would lower my roll-center but how would it affect the car's behavior with stock or near-stock height? I'd like to get the kit but I don't know if there'd be a benefit without lowering the car.

Get coilovers if you can afford them and are able to accept the firm ride something like a Flex will offer.

The whiteline ALK drops the rear of the front control arm, adding caster. It doesn't significantly change the roll center of the suspension. The point of the ALK is to add caster. It only drops the roll center a mm or two. Not enough to be a problem. At stock height, there will be no discernable difference. You might notice more body roll with less understeer though, because of the added caster (more camber gain on wheel turn, resulting in more grip, and thus more body roll). If your running Flex's or something like that it will be fine. I ran a LOT of caster on my old car, and there was a difference in body roll, but my suspension setup handled it well.

You should decide how much you want to spend. And I personally would not go with Teins or other Japanese coilovers. They tend to be stiff and have very little travel. Same goes for the $1000 e-bay specials, which have the added bonus of crap dampers.

For $1000ish or less, I'd say your choices are KYB AGX or Tokicos with something like ver5 STi springs. The v5 struts would be good but can be hard to find.

For $2000-3000 there are some good coilover options, like Ohlins Sportline, RCE tarmac 2, and KW Variant 3.

It would be pretty pointless to buy coilovers unless you plan on spending a lot of time on the track and auto-xing.

I might end up buying some new swaybars for my car, but other than that I'm going to get some fresh tires, finish that free motor swap, and start saving for a new project, which unfortunately won't be a Legacy.

To jamal: My budget is as close to a grand as I can get. Hence the question. A set of AGX's, Group N topmounts, and springs is gonna be rather close to a less-expensive set of coilovers.

To BAC5.2, I've been reading the forum for two or three days trying to knock some good information in my head. Reading comprehension owns me I guess

The only thing really making me wary of a less-expensive coilover set is the high spring-rate and lack of travel in everything around $1000 I've seen. Here in WV, the roads aren't awesome and I routinely get on very rough paved roads...along with regular blasts across dirt/gravel/mud roads. I also live in an area which gets frequent snow in the winter.

I guess what I'm really looking for is something that'll keep me stuck to the surface in as many situations as possible and keep the car good and settled in the process.

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While I'm killin' time before work, another question. If I decide to go with AGX's for a '92-'94 Legacy, the STi springs would fit right into my stock topmounts, right? Also, would they lower my car or would the different perch on the struts cancel that out?

I think this may be the route I wish to go but...more opinions would be appreciated.

Yeah if anything you'd just need some ver8 STi front upper spring perches, I think. GC fitment AGXes with those springs and your rear tops should work pretty well I think.

v5/6 springs and 92+ tops and perches would be the best and would give the right ride height and stuff. v7 springs might jack up the rear of the car. I'm not sure what the v8 springs will do to ride height but I suspect 3/4" lower or so.

I know there are some GC-fitment tokico struts available that are supposedly better than the agxes. I don't see any nasioc vendors selling them though.

Jamal gives good advice. Most coilovers don't give enough rebound travel. The only thing to add would be look into WRX or STi take off sets. Much cheaper than any of the above mentioned options and probably a better choice if you're only driving on the street.

I like my 04 STi setup, but left it off because of the issues with camber adjustment. Although if you've got a grand, get some RCE lowering front camber plates to go with them. That will give a completely even drop (my car is a slight touch lower than I'd like in the rear) and fix the alignment issues if you add some rear camber bolts.

I think stock the STi setup gives a fairly even drop, within 2-3 mm. And don't the RCE camber plates only allow like three threads for the nut to engage the strut or something like that?

Thanks for the great suggestions everyone! I'm not sure if I emphasized one thing enough though

I prefer not to drop the car at all...or at least as little as possible

I've read the compendium and searched extensively but I'm still unsure as to precisely what parts I need to use an STi's suspension. Also, where could I find camber plates to correct what the STi-upgrade screws up?

Thanks again everyone!

Racecomp engineering makes some pretty nice camber plates.

Here is my car with 04 STi stuff. I ended up filing the rear bolt holes in the strut towers to make them fit, then later found out you can use 90-91 rear tops with them. Here is how the car sits. With the RCE lowering plates it would be like 3/8" lower up front, and they make some that don't lower the car:



In the rear I have intrax or something camber bolts maxed out for -1.5 deg, with pretty much no cross camber even after my hackjob with a file. The website in my profile talks about it some more (but is a work in progress), and I've posted about it here if you want to search for threads started by me.

I don't think there is anything that will suit what you want. You want to get rid of roll, but have a nice ride for gravel and stuff, and no drop. There isn't much that will be easy to satisfy all these. The best thing I can recommend is find some near new WRX setups and put them in. New struts are oodles better than 17 year old struts. You should be able to find a set for 50-100 bucks on an impreza site. unless price went up a whole lot recently. The drop should be less than an inch. Like 3/4" front and almost an inch rear.

SemperGuard wrote:I don't think there is anything that will suit what you want. You want to get rid of roll, but have a nice ride for gravel and stuff, and no drop. There isn't much that will be easy to satisfy all these. The best thing I can recommend is find some near new WRX setups and put them in. New struts are oodles better than 17 year old struts. You should be able to find a set for 50-100 bucks on an impreza site. unless price went up a whole lot recently. The drop should be less than an inch. Like 3/4" front and almost an inch rear.

My apologies if I seem to be making unreasonable demands. I don't absolutely have to have no roll whatsover. Nor do I have to be able to be the quickest Subaru in gravel and such. I'm looking for suggestions as to the best compromises you guys have made.

I can live with a .75 - 1" drop. I love the height of the car for some odd reason but I no longer play in the mud with the trucks...so...I don't really need 20 feet of clearance

If you're going to get wrx struts make sure they're out of an 04 sti. The regular stuff is pretty soft and not worth the hassle.

Here are the options I see, in order of preference:

AGX + ver5/6 springs + whiteline swaybars.

GR2 + Whiteline control springs + swaybars would be less expensive and not as stiff.

04 STi struts and springs + camber plates + swaybars would be another decent option but not ideal imo.

ver5/6 struts and springs would be great and fit perfectly if you can find them

Look into tokico. I know they make a GC fitment strut that is probably better than the AGX.

jamal wrote:If you're going to get wrx struts make sure they're out of an 04 sti. The regular stuff is pretty soft and not worth the hassle.

Here are the options I see, in order of preference:

AGX + ver5/6 springs + whiteline swaybars.

GR2 + Whiteline control springs + swaybars would be less expensive and not as stiff.

04 STi struts and springs + camber plates + swaybars would be another decent option but not ideal imo.

ver5/6 struts and springs would be great and fit perfectly if you can find them

Look into tokico. I know they make a GC fitment strut that is probably better than the AGX.

Funny thing is, up until I got curious about coilovers last week, I was planning on the AGX/Whiteline/STi setup before. I just wasn't sure how good/bad it would be.

I do believe this is what I'll go for.

Thanks for the information, suggestions, and patience to everyone who responded.

BTW, jamal, great info on your site

jamal wrote:You should decide how much you want to spend. And I personally would not go with Teins or other Japanese coilovers. They tend to be stiff and have very little travel. Same goes for the $1000 e-bay specials, which have the added bonus of crap dampers.

I've actually compared a set of Flex's with a set of KW Variant 3's. The actual piston travel was within a few mm of eachother. I do see your point though. The Megan Racing coilovers have a good reputation because they work. I've never read any reviews saying they work well (at the track or such), however I do know a few hard-core Forester guys running them at the track with nothing but good things to say. BC makes megan's coilovers, as well as some other not-to-be-named higher end coilovers.

I think the Tein's are a good entry level coilover, however there are much better for not much more. If it were my dollar, I'd probably run something like an H&R or Ohlin's coilover, espically on the street. If I had to "settle" on one coilover, it'd be hard to tear me from properly set up Moton's or Ohlins.

It all depends on what you want out of the car. I'd have zero reservations about running a set of coilovers on the street. I don't mind a harsh ride if I can see the payoffs on the backroads and at the track.

I had AGX's from an 04 WRX with STi Pink springs, 91 rear top hats, and my Noltec camber/caster plates up front. It didn't really lower the car any, but it stuck like stink just about everywhere. Didn't like gravel, that setup, but it liked the tarmac just fine. Even the bumpy stuff (I went to school in WV, so I'm familiar with the roads). I also had an alignment that would rip the teeth out of your head on turn-in.

For gravel, stock springs and GR2's were the favorite of setups I ran on my car.

voodoochylde wrote:
I prefer not to drop the car at all...or at least as little as possible

I've read the compendium and searched extensively but I'm still unsure as to precisely what parts I need to use an STi's suspension. Also, where could I find camber plates to correct what the STi-upgrade screws up?

Thanks again everyone!

My goals were very similar to your own, and you've got some good advice from these guys. If I could throw in a couple thoughts:

a. Near stock ride height. That means you're pretty much using OEM springs of some variety. Probably STi.

b. Less body roll. STi springs would get less body roll, and you'll get excellent results with thicker sway bars. Go at least 20mm in front.

c. Don't ignore the tires. I pulled off my all season tires recently and put the summer performance tires back on... feels like an entirely different car. Resist the temptation to use taller tires. 205/50/16 is close to stock size if you can score some WRX or Legacy 16" wheels. I have run the more common 205/55/16, that's almost an inch in diameter larger and you will feel the difference.

d. Don't forget a proper alignment. This is huge.

I opted for STi v. 7 struts and springs. I love the ride height, it's exactly what I was going for. It is ever so slightly lower, but it's not a problem. As one of the timing control captains for the Hundred Acre Wood Rally this year I drove into and out of several gravel stage roads and my car negotiated everything just fine. I wouldn't want to go any lower. I have 20mm front and 18-22mm rear adjustable sway bars. The rear is pretty much always set to full stiff. I was able to get about -1.2 degrees camber in the front with only the stock bolts. I added adjustable bolts to the rear to get about -0.8 degrees camber. It all works pretty well together.

Here is what I don't like about my current set up:

a. I do get some of the infamous STi strut clunk every once in a while. I just live with it, or jack up the rear of the car and it goes away for a while.

b. I also get a bit of the infamous STi bounciness when I'm just cruising down the road. The suspension really comes into it's own when pushed hard. At which point it's a blast.

c. I'd take a bit more front camber for the autocross course and to even out front tire wear.

d. I'd probably go to a 22 or 24mm front sway bar some day.

Overall, if I were to do it over again, I'd like something a bit more ... refined, I guess. Smoother during the commute, would be nice, less bouncy. More elegant in the curves, more agressive in the dynamics. I'd probably have to go to adjustable dampers to get all of those things. My current thought would be to use the v. 7 springs on 2002-3 WRX strut bodies with Koni adjustable inserts. Soften them up for daily driving, make 'em stiffer for autocross and carving up the twisties.

I hope my rambling is helpful...

ultrasonic wrote:[
b. I also get a bit of the infamous STi bounciness when I'm just cruising down the road. The suspension really comes into it's own when pushed hard. At which point it's a blast.

c. I'd take a bit more front camber for the autocross course and to even out front tire wear.

Count that. I just took a detour on the way home through a section of road called the Portuguese bend. My suspension went through it's full range of travel to say the least.

And putting koni inserts in the WRX struts would be a bad idea. Use stock or GC struts so the camber is right.

ultrasonic wrote:Overall, if I were to do it over again, I'd like something a bit more ... refined, I guess. Smoother during the commute, would be nice, less bouncy. More elegant in the curves, more agressive in the dynamics. I'd probably have to go to adjustable dampers to get all of those things. My current thought would be to use the v. 7 springs on 2002-3 WRX strut bodies with Koni adjustable inserts. Soften them up for daily driving, make 'em stiffer for autocross and carving up the twisties.

I hope my rambling is helpful...

the other thing you could do is buy newer STi struts, and take just the damper and install it in your 04 Strut housing. The newer the STi the more refined the feel. Some has to do with things other than the struts, but the struts were the main thing. This is a much cheaper way to go than koni's or coilovers, assuming you have enough patience to wait for a good deal.

jamal wrote: And putting koni inserts in the WRX struts would be a bad idea. Use stock or GC struts so the camber is right.

Based upon the 2002 STi struts I have, I figure that 2002 or 2003 WRX struts would fit pretty much the same way. Seems like the range of adjustment I have right now in the front is close to WRX stock range, and I've taken care of the rear with camber bolts. I wouldn't be any worse off if I used WRX strut bodies, would I?

I suppose GC strut bodies would work just as well, or maybe better as far as camber range, but I already have the v. 7 springs that I'd pair with the Konis. I figured that they would better fit the WRX struts than GC struts.

SemperGuard wrote:the other thing you could do is buy newer STi struts, and take just the damper and install it in your 04 Strut housing. The newer the STi the more refined the feel. Some has to do with things other than the struts, but the struts were the main thing. This is a much cheaper way to go than koni's or coilovers, assuming you have enough patience to wait for a good deal.

If it means cheap performance, I certainly have patience! Swapping strut cartridges is a good idea, and I had thought of doing that just to get fresher struts. But I also wanted to experiment with the adjustability of the Koni dampers, so I may go that direction anyway, at some point.

Thanks for all the comments, everyone, I hope this thread has not strayed too far from the OP's line of questioning.

no, the adjustment range is over half a degree off. If you really want performance having enough negative camber is a huge deal. I would run -2 degrees on the street if I could.

v7 springs will fit fine on GC struts and tops.

jamal wrote:no, the adjustment range is over half a degree off. If you really want performance having enough negative camber is a huge deal. I would run -2 degrees on the street if I could.

v7 springs will fit fine on GC struts and tops.

I thought I was only giving up about .2 or so. Yeah, I'd love to have an extra .5 or more for autocross.

You're saying that ver. 7 springs on GC struts will give the same ride height as the same springs on the STi struts? Hrm... that would be cool.

not sure, you'd have to put the struts side by side.