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So I've got my killer build I'm trying to do, and after talking with The Matt Monson Man via PM, he tells me that the 20k heads would have a problem revving past 8k due to the bucket over shim. (I'm still a little unclear on what all that is, but I'm gonna read up unless someone wants to fill in the details for me.)
I want to be able to rev to about 8500, that's the goal. In order to do so, I was told I need to have the heads converted to bucket under shim, or go shimless. Anyone have some experience here, or can suggest what needs to happen to go shimless?

I won't be running stock lots of things, we will have management and some other stuff, I think most of the roadblocks will be taken care of.

Thoughts?

Why do you want to go to 8500?

You really ought to run SOHC 2.5 heads...as they are roller rocker and solid lifter...you could rev them as much as you want...and they flow great too.

well, there are other things that will help you to rev higher other than shimmless buckets. Also, there are other things that need to be taken care of before then (oiling especially).

is there an engine that uses shimless buckets that you can swap in? For example, 1zz engines (toyota MR-S, 7th gen celica GT) uses shimless buckets, and are swappable onto 3sgte's. you just need to get the right spec bucket, and your good. normally you will need to get your tolerances to around .001 when you run shimless buckets, so unless you know what your doing, have a good machine shop ready.

upgraded springs and cams should be used to rev to rev over 8k anyways, but those are a given

BTW, bucket over shim and bucket under shim tells you where the shim is. a shim is a little disk that will adjust the size of the bucket. bucket over shim has the shim underneath, and bucket under shim is, you guessed it, over the bucket. shimless is a bucket machined at a specific size, so that it will be to the exact size you need. because it doesn't use a shim, you reduce the valvetrain weight....

btw, THE matt monson isn't that great. i know a few subaru techs i would call before i got his opinion...

denver_whitest185 wrote:
btw, THE matt monson isn't that great. i know a few subaru techs i would call before i got his opinion...

Hey...how about no forum member bashing on here...especially from those whom have been on the forum for less than a month!

sorry

Edit: here are some pictures
Shimless
http://www.turbomr2.com/MR2/HowTo/Engin ... s-2798.JPG
Shim under
http://www.rebelpacket.net/gallery/albu ... .sized.jpg
Shim over next to a shimless
http://www.rossmachineracing.com/images ... /lift1.jpg

a quick artical on shimless 1zz buckets on a 3sgte (i know, different engine, but same concept)
http://www.rossmachineracing.com/3sbucket.html

The good part is, my boy's a machinist by trade. Well, he works in a hydraulic repair shop, but any machining necessary can be had with no problem.
Um, the parts pics are nice, but I'm gonna go REAL stupid on ya and say I have NO CLUE about what that all does. The bucket and shims open the exhaust valves according to the cam lobes action? I'm sorry, but that's where my engine knowledge gets a lil fuzzy. . .

Nick, I'm not going SOHC, though I have read the NASIOC thread on heads comparison and how the EJ25D heads are "big port" and flow supposedly better than any other subaru head. Would those even mate proper to an EJ20g? They'd still need work to be turbo compatible, no? I heard they did have the casting requirements for it, though?

What kind of oiling problems might I face?

And I don't particularly WANT to goto 8500, but my guy is insistent on taking the build "all the way". All the way where, I'm still not sure, just as long as it gets back to me.

tris91ricer wrote:And I don't particularly WANT to goto 8500, but my guy is insistent on taking the build "all the way". All the way where, I'm still not sure, just as long as it gets back to me.

Sounds like your "guy" doesn't really know what he is doing...because if he did...he would know that taking Subaru motors to 8500 rpm isn't necessary and will just require a lot of added crap that will cost more $$...

tris91ricer wrote:The good part is, my boy's a machinist by trade. Well, he works in a hydraulic repair shop, but any machining necessary can be had with no problem.
Um, the parts pics are nice, but I'm gonna go REAL stupid on ya and say I have NO CLUE about what that all does. The bucket and shims open the exhaust valves according to the cam lobes action? I'm sorry, but that's where my engine knowledge gets a lil fuzzy. . .

What kind of oiling problems might I face?

'

some machine shops can't get tolerances to 1/1000th of an inch (.001). technically, your suppose to go to 1/2 of 1/1000 inch with shimless buckets, but that seems a little overkill IMO.

here, heres something to give you a good visual
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Engine.gif

I don't know where subaru EJ engines start, but normally oil pumps will be strained to flow enough oil to the crank and head at high rpms. i know 3sgte's will need a high volume/high pressure oil pump above 8k to avoid damage (you can rev that high with a stock unit, but your running the risk of oil starvation). the normally upgrade for a 3s is to use a 5s oil pump because it has a slightly larger volume, and has an "underdriven" pulley with one less tooth, making it spin faster. there are also ported pumps to have a higher volume, and shimmed pumps for more pressure (not the best way to get more pressure, but it will do the trick)

really, the question is are you actually going to be making power past 7000 rpm to make it viable to rev past that point? what size turbo are you running, and what other upgrades? its pointless to rev that high if your not running something pretty big of the likes
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/246/ ... racgt3.jpg
KO Racing T3/T4 50-trim kit, 264 cams, AEM PnP EMS, etc...

He wants to put on GT66? I forget the nomenclature, it's the stock skyline r34 turbo. I don't even know where most of these parts are coming from, but, since I'm literally on the exact opposite side of the country, there's not much I can do except answer the questions he has for me. *shrug*
He hasn't built a subaru before, but he has built an MR2 that makes gobs of power, and he's aiming to do the same with mine. I'm more or less preparing to answer some of the questions he might have, but I'm trying to talk him down to something reasonable so it doesn't get so out of hand. . . I personally don't see the need to make power above 6k, but I think he'll figure it out the same way once he gets into it. For now, it's a learning experience!

a stock skyline turbo won't give you a powerband like that.

really, I doubt you'll need shimless buckets, there are other things that you should consider in your build. see if you can track down where you can find them, and unless they are extreamly cheap (under $200) and your machine shop guy has used them before, than i would say go for it....

denver_whitest185 wrote:a stock skyline turbo won't give you a powerband like that.

really, I doubt you'll need shimless buckets, there are other things that you should consider in your build. see if you can track down where you can find them, and unless they are extreamly cheap (under $200) and your machine shop guy has used them before, than i would say go for it....

other things like. . . ?

Cams and springs are one, and a high flow dohc head if you already haven't upgraded to one. tuning is also a big factor when you want to make power at the top of the rev band. what exactly will the propose of this car be? what is your goal and what kind of budget do you have?

a gt66 is definatley not a stock skyline turbo, anyways you wouldnt want one off ofa rb series engine, since the stockers on a rb26 are only pushing 1.3 liters any damn way. if it was an rb25 then yea it would work out since they run a single, but its seriously pointless to try and run a turbo just because of what it came off of. do you really want a 10+ year old t3 non ball bearing turbo? and furthermore wtf is a gt66? garretts site does not even show them so im guessing it was purchased on ebay. dont run it.


all im seeing in this thread are warning signs of shit about to go wrong.
my first steps if i was spending a bunch of money on my ej engine would be,
a) do some research so you know wtf is up and dont get ripped off
b) get the hell away from whoever is building your engine. if hes telling you what to spend your money on and you have no clue why or what for, then its time to close that buisiness venture real quick.


this message board along with nasioc can pretty much teach you whatever the hell you need to know to buil what you want the correct way. just take some time and do some reading before you spend a bunch of money on something you may not like.

ej20k heads are dohc and flow pretty damn good, I'd say. The exact build is a 20g with 20k heads that have been PNP'd.
We haven't gotten to the cams yet, though, I have been thinking about where I'd like to see the most power, so we'll base our tuning off of that. Oh, a custom harness and ECU as well. Jeff knows the guy who made it, I'm not being let in on the secret of what it is exactly. I've been told that it's not a branded kit, though. That's the 'surprise'.

The car will probably be a show car and streetcar, among other things. We're really just out to build a badass car that no one has done yet and trying to stay around $5-6k for the whole deal. So far, we're well under budget.

Since it's also going to be my daily, tough and reliable are key factors, second only to driving enjoyment/my taste.
I like what I have now --frankenmotor v1 (20g with stock heads) makes it a GREAT sprint car. It's high-compression (for turbos anyway, ~9:1) which, coupled with the 4.11s (+drivetrain goodies) makes it accelerate like crazy! I really like the feel of it! I think this next one will be even better.
(We're gonna have my original 20g block to mess with once this one goes in)

The goal, as a showcar would be mainly its looks and bragging rights. Like I said, I doubt there's been many of the 20g/20k combos with the other kinda stuff I'm wrapping around it. I'd like dyno sheets to read nearly as close to 400hp as I can get.
If I live in the right area by the time it gets delivered back to me, I'd like to use it for T3. (My low-rent dream business) So it has to be able to carry passengers and gear in a comfortable/luxurious and technologically aesthetic cabin.
We're going all-out!

well, ive seen a few 400hp 4 bangers built for the budget your giving it, but they are normally only running that kind of power under a decent size shot of nitrous, which i try to stay away from. they also aren't really a show car either, but that depends on the original condition.

i don't know much about the differences between different ej's, so you lost me with that. however, its universal that certain turbos can flow certain amounts, and your fuel system will only support so much power till they go static and lean out. what i would focus on is a solid motor, with only headwork that will either increase flow or increase reliablity. you won't see much hp benifit with shimless buckets, and sure it will help you rev higher, but unless your doing hardcore racing that requires you to shift that high, your not going to need it.

i would get a good, strong turbo set up capable of 20-25psi before it looses effecency. a very good, cheap turbo is a Garrett GT3271 (around $750 new, twin scroll, journal bearing, big internal wastegaste with an external option, etc). you will need custom t3 twinscroll flange headers and exhaust work, but your probably already planning some custom work in that area anyways. if your stuck on running that GT66, wherever it came from, than thats your thing so figure out your own design. there are of course other things you need, but thats what this topic is on

do things the right way the first time, and you'll be set
-Ted

http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic. ... highlight=

I know you have read it before but what you are looking to build sounds similar to Marks setup. He has all of that info in there, difference being he used the 2.5 dual cam heads instead of the "K's" And from what was written he prefered the stock cams to either the STi or the HKS. I don't remember actual numbers but I believe i was told his car made 450+ before he switched to the STi block. That is if memory serves me correctly.


I mulled over the shim over buckets for a long time and finally came to terms with not needing to go over 7500. But i also did consider if it was possible to set up the shims and buckets having them welded/ brazed together then machined if needed. Any one ever considered it?

I thought about that solution also. You would have to be very carefull welding, because of heat warpage.

I don't see the point. If you build it to breathe at that kind of rpm without variable valve timing, your bottom end will be shit and idling will be a bear. Also, without a way to adjust the valve clearance, how will you account for wear? Wear that will definitely be an issue with the heavy springs you'll need to run plus an aggresive cam grind. You're also talking a lot of money for a lightweight balanced bottom end unless you want a grenade. And a turbo that can make power at that rpm will have a lot of lag. To each their own, but it sounds like someone's not telling you the problems involved with that kind of engine speed. Even Honda reduced the redline on their 2.2 to 8300 in the S2000 when they upped the capacity and I've read they may've had warranty problems with the 2.0's 9k rpm. Granted, that's an inline and has more balance issues than the boxer, but it's also a purpose built high revver by a company that knows how to make a high rpm engine (and it has variable valve timing). Really, without a way to adjust valve clearances and variable timing, I would think it would be unsatisfying on the street. If you really want to brag about numbers, just make something up. Most people are dipshits that don't know the difference (generally the same that are impressed just by numbers). A good broad torque curve will beat a peaky engine with more power just about every time. But I will say, once that thing finally hit boost it would really be a hell of a kick.

The other issue is accessories - they are not designed for those kinds of rpm either. Someone mentioned the oil pump which is defintely a concern, but every rotating item is going to be pushed beyond design parameters - even t-belt pulleys. I don't think it will be much fun or even that driveable below a narrow rpm band, so you'll likely spend some time up high (why else would you bother?) and I just don't see the alternator, water pump (impeller isn't designed for that speed either and could cavitate, reducing cooling greatly, beyond just the concern for the bearings), PS, etc. liking that at all. I hate to be a naysayer, and I could be wrong, but that's a lot of money to risk (see if this guy pushing this on you would pay to do it to his own car. I wonder if he's just dreaming and trying out the idea on you). It's kind of like, elevators are rated for 3-times the listed weight for every cable, but I still wouldn't get into one that had only one cable holding it and a load that was a mere double the listed capacity.

Like I said, if we run into too many roadblocks with pushing the limits, we'll leave it at what we can do with it.

I'm a fan of moderation when it comes to the car, but I am a bit curious of what my possibilities could be. Thanks for the thread, bmxpunk. I hadn't read that one before.

evolutionmovement wrote: water pump (impeller isn't designed for that speed either and could cavitate, reducing cooling greatly, beyond just the concern for the bearings)

very good point too. Cavitation is an issue with some engines above 7500rpm (ex. SR20's), so you may want to look into big engine builds by some of the more reputable tuner shops and see if they did any preventative measures.

denver_whitest185 wrote: so you may want to look into big engine builds by some of the more reputable tuner shops and see if they did any preventative measures.

Yeah...like not unneccessarily revving the engines they build lol

555BCTurbo wrote:

denver_whitest185 wrote: so you may want to look into big engine builds by some of the more reputable tuner shops and see if they did any preventative measures.

Yeah...like not unneccessarily revving the engines they build lol

sure, but don't tell me that they never raced their engines or dyno'd them past 7500, unless its a show only car or a dyno queen...

denver_whitest185 wrote:

555BCTurbo wrote:

denver_whitest185 wrote: so you may want to look into big engine builds by some of the more reputable tuner shops and see if they did any preventative measures.

Yeah...like not unneccessarily revving the engines they build lol

sure, but don't tell me that they never raced their engines or dyno'd them past 7500, unless its a show only car or a dyno queen...

Oh, I know...my comment was mostly tounge in cheek.

ah, alright