legacycentral bbs

The title is a bit of a tongue in cheek humor.. I apparently have a decent engine and a killer clutch...

Group N Engine/Trans and Pitch, balanced rotating assy and a 6 puck clutch with hard acceleration in 2nd... That's all it took to send those teeth flying...

After two years of a build and a VERY mellow 500 mile engine break-in... I decided to give it a go, and run through the gears fairly fast... First gear launched well, and at about 2k in second gear, right as I hit my torque curve, my second gear ceased to retain it's shape...

So here I am with a very odd shift pattern, and not much cash atm... * just dumped tons into last stretch of engine build*

Here's my dilemma...
1. I make a bi-monthly check of around 600 bucks...

2. I'm FINALLY back in the black, checking acc. wise... *not working for 6 months does that... Even had to cash in my 401k to help pay for school and rebuild a turbo...

3. I really really want a trans built by AndrewTech, I've heard nothing but good things AND talking to em today, they're nice dudes with very helpful staff.

4. The AndrewTech box built to withstand my 250 hp to *will be 300 hp engine* costs like $700 labor and $4,XXX in parts...

5. They mentioned my ACT 6 puck was what pretty much destroyed the gear since there was NO give anywhere else and that clutch is hard-engaging..... and reccomended a less brutal clutch would help things... *The guy on the phone said he's running 400HP and will only need a 4 puck along with DOG gears. And said, "too much drama" for average street cars to have DOG gears and suggested me not picking em up/needing them. AND the 6 puck is mean enough that it'll not slip... to the point of a hard enough engage, I CAN SNAP axle shafts... *hmm, not something I want to do..*

6. I built the engine to the hilt *personally* so I'm a quick learner and dont mind working on my own stuff. I have a friend who owns a full scale auto shop and is retired, so we just sat around and chatted, while he watched. So I can possibly buy the trans kit and install it myself.
.............................................................................................................
So I'd like some alternatives on what I should do... I have regular bills like the rest of you..... ^^ so be nice...


- could I go with gears 1,2,3 in an Andrewtech build..? And use stock late model Legacy gears for 4 and 5... ?

- softer clutch? I dont have a problem with the pressureplate, but I'm guessing a matching clutch/pressureplateset is the only way to go.

- I plan on going 300HP max.

-I'd prefer to stay 5spd (mostly because I just bought and installed the trans mount and short shifter.)

- Do I rebuild my trans *is it pricey* stock and drive it all normal human like *difficult* and save like crazy for the andrewtech box *I just stopped eating rice for two meals a day... I've been on a pretty tight budget building this car over the last two years... ESPECIALLY not having a job during school...* I'm thinking I'm glad that I like rice....

thanks guys

So 6spd VERSUS the nearly $5K 5spd upgrade...
What am I looking at getting a 300HP reliable trans into my car?

-STI TRANS... I'm guessing about 3k is built for atleast 300 I'd think.

-Axle Shafts?
-Drive Shafts... I'm thinking a Legacy SS Auto works?
-Rear Diff? Swapping to the 4.11 Rear Gear/Axleshafts?

Considering I just put in four new axles, shift linkage and trans mount 6puck clutch/pressureplate... *about $900, with no labor-I installed em...* I'm really hoping some/most of this would transfer over to the 6spd... pending it's less expensive and more dependable...

I'm picking up a used trans from Doug! yay! , so yeah I'll have a trans to install. Though I'd like to look at my options for a possible future trans build so lets not let this post go to waste and lets tell about some "gear deletes" we've done..

do not drive that gearbox as is. You will destroy more shit. It will become more expensive.

Arctic Assassian wrote:do not drive that gearbox as is. You will destroy more shit. It will become more expensive.

I imagine it wasn't healthy with chunks in the pan... but I didn't have a whole lot of choice...

Same thing happened to me on the OBS-T in '04 (a week after beating up on some Banshees with T5s...).
I drove it 4spd for about 8-10weeks while I figured out what the options were.
I got a tranny out of a '04 Ts with 1k miles on it slapped it on & took it easy with the shifting.

There are a lot of us in the same boat, building engines that the stock 5-speed can’t handle. Trouble is a 5MT with aftermarket gears and the 6MT are both about $4000 options at this point. And even if I had the cash, putting another $4000 into a $4000 car doesn’t make much sense. I’m hoping that with more and more STi out there and the B-spec Legacy that the price on a used 6MT will come down.

Gary

The price of a 6spd may not come down much if there is high demand for it.
The 5spd DCCD boxes are still pretty expensive.

A JDM WRX 5spd should hold up better than USDM 5 spds @ the 300-350WHP Level & will usually have 4.111 (93-96GC8/GF8, 97+GF8) or 4.444 (97+ GC8) final drives.
Some special editions will have 3.9 FD trannys like the V2 STi RA.

You can always go 4eat which can be modded to hold down a ton of HP for a little less than the price of a 6spd or PPG gears.

'04 + WRX trannies have the "RA" width gears, which aren't much of an upgrade. Ask Phil (BAC5.2) how many RA boxes come into Adrewtech.

A 6mt is less expensive than a PPG box at the moment. IIRC, the setup is over $4500 and then there is install and new blocking rings and possibly bearings. All of a sudden you are at $6-7000 before you know it. (correct me if I'm wrong)
PPG boxes are nice though.

A 6mt can be had for around $3k if you look hard. If you can an SS you don't need a rear diff. A clutch/flywheel, driveshaft, trans mount, linkage,and possibly stubs($100) and you are good to go.

The stock clutch started to slip on me at around 350 wtq.

My greddy stage 1 clutch was a biatch to get used to. Talk about uber grabbing power. My buddy actually roasted the tires a little when he first tried to get it moving. It finally settled down a little bit, enough to make daily driving not a pain, but I'd really hate to drive anything with a puck setup. Subsequently, I think my tranny mount is long gone.

Rally Guy - could you PM me where you got all your Group N stuff from? Or possibly post it? Part numbers would rock.

Richard wrote:My greddy stage 1 clutch was a biatch to get used to. Talk about uber grabbing power. My buddy actually roasted the tires a little when he first tried to get it moving. It finally settled down a little bit, enough to make daily driving not a pain, but I'd really hate to drive anything with a puck setup. Subsequently, I think my tranny mount is long gone.

Rally Guy - could you PM me where you got all your Group N stuff from? Or possibly post it? Part numbers would rock.

pm sent ^^

I didn't care a whole lot for the shudder on the pucked clutch, but I loooove how they grab when on gravel! I've had a few complaints of my pressureplate.. *Is there something wrong, I think your pedal is stuck..* hehe

I just dont want to break anything.. So I'm going slightly beefy

Was your 6-puck disk sprung?

3kish does not sound too bad for a 6speed if you can find one for that price.

I know a couple guys who are beating the hell (launch control, 375ish WHP) out of "standard" used JDM WRX trannys (the 375ish WHP car uses a 4.111 box from a '95 WRX) for a little while now with no problems. I would not buy a RA gearset & spend a mountain of money on a rebuild.

These can be found pretty cheap, & while they are not PPG boxes, you'd have to break about 10 JDM trannys before you cover the PPG's ready to run cost.

BXSS wrote:Was your 6-puck disk sprung?.

Nope..

Well, atleast I know that it's not my transmissions fault for breaking.. I was just using a MEAN clutch...

Hmm, it's an expensive lesson learned huh...

+1 on the clutch killing the tranny.
If it were sprung you'd be probably OK right now.

I've seen a few trannys (Honda/Acura B-series & RX7) break after the installation of a unsprung 6-4 puck clutch disk.

yeah, I'm thinking I'd be well off, using a sprung "Stage 1" clutch... I've found a few places here and there.. where's a good place to buy JUST the clutch plate?

I think you can get a ACT disk by itself - ? the best place to get it from...

So you popped 2nd? Sucks. If you have NO choice, drain the fluid, get the chunks out. Fill the trans, drive it down the driveway, re-drain. Do this like 5 or 6 times. Then fill it and drive it. Don't shift to 2nd.

It's not good for anything, but at this point your already F'd. Plus, a PPG synchro set won't work with any of your OEM transmission bits anyway. You need a WRX case.

Not sure where Dan got the 7k number. Not even close. More like 5k, but you'll need a core. If your lucky, a friend of yours has blown a 5-speed in his WRX and has one lying around.

JDM 5-speeds are the same internally as an 03.5+ USDM 5-speed. The only difference is the final drive. Seriously. That's it. No joke.

You can only replace gears in pairs. 1&2, 3&4, or 1&2 AND 3&4.

300whp is a "why not more" power level. You already need a transmission capable of it so why not just bump it up? 350whp isn't really any harder on the engine than 300whp.

Don't waste your time using RA gears.

There are three mentalities.

1) Build the transmission so it won't break in the future and remove that weight from your mind.

2) Replace the transmission with another stock unit. It WILL break in the future, and you'll be wasting money (it's like renting vs. owning). You may have to replace 10 transmissions with stock before you get close to the cost of PPG's, but when you break that 11th transmission you are suddenly and forever in the red.

3) Suffer the gear ratios and go with a 6-speed. The 6-speed is a really nice transmission but I wouldn't make drag-racing your hobby if I had one.


It all boils down to funds and priorities.

To do a 6-speed swap "right" in my eyes, requires far more than a transmission and a clutch. If it were me, I would only do the full deal. Transmission, rear diff, driveshaft (or a DSS solid or ACPT carbon), axles, hubs, brembo's, etc. Ideally, you'd either do the 05+ setup with the new front struts or use an 04 setup but get the TIC big-hub kit to convert to the 05+ front wheel bearings. I'd probably use the DCCDPro diff controller, because wiring the stock controller up is a pain in the ass. It can be done, but that's a LOT of work. One day, I would like to take on the challenge of building my own auto DCCD controller. I feel like "auto-mode" is lacking on all DCCD controllers, even the stock one. The 08 should be better though.

So, cost analysis:

PPG - If you do the install yourself, expect just around $5k +/- a few hundred.

6-speed - Trans only you should expect around $4000. To do it "right" expect around $6000 to $7000. Sometimes you can get a deal and if you can hold out and piece it together over some time you can come out way below this.

You can replace it with stock for under $1000, but you KNOW that you'll break it.

My trans-breaking story sucks. I was driving to the MVA to pick up the tags for my Forester. Going 10mph in 2nd gear but not even really on the gas. Turned into the parking lot and up a little "ramp" and the car bucked really badly. Took a single tooth off of 2nd gear. Towed it home, dropped the tranny in my garage and built a straight-cut dogbox to go in it. Sucky part is that I only put, maybe, 2000 miles on the car before selling it. Then it got wrecked shortly after. It was awesome to drive a dogbox all over the place. I'll never forget a would-be race with an E-46 M3. One loud *clack* into 1st gear and the roar of an open downpipe, and he was scared. Wouldn't have mattered either way, I would have destroyed him had he tried. Good times in that car. I do miss it terribly.

BAC5.2 wrote:
...There are three mentalities.

1) Build the transmission so it won't break in the future and remove that weight from your mind.

2) Replace the transmission with another stock unit. It WILL break in the future, and you'll be wasting money (it's like renting vs. owning). You may have to replace 10 transmissions with stock before you get close to the cost of PPG's, but when you break that 11th transmission you are suddenly and forever in the red.

3) Suffer the gear ratios and go with a 6-speed. The 6-speed is a really nice transmission but I wouldn't make drag-racing your hobby if I had one.


It all boils down to funds and priorities.

To do a 6-speed swap "right" in my eyes, requires far more than a transmission and a clutch. If it were me, I would only do the full deal. Transmission, rear diff, driveshaft (or a DSS solid or ACPT carbon), axles, hubs, brembo's, etc. Ideally, you'd either do the 05+ setup with the new front struts or use an 04 setup but get the TIC big-hub kit to convert to the 05+ front wheel bearings. I'd probably use the DCCDPro diff controller, because wiring the stock controller up is a pain in the ass. It can be done, but that's a LOT of work. One day, I would like to take on the challenge of building my own auto DCCD controller. I feel like "auto-mode" is lacking on all DCCD controllers, even the stock one. The 08 should be better though.

So, cost analysis:

PPG - If you do the install yourself, expect just around $5k +/- a few hundred.

6-speed - Trans only you should expect around $4000. To do it "right" expect around $6000 to $7000. Sometimes you can get a deal and if you can hold out and piece it together over some time you can come out way below this.

You can replace it with stock for under $1000, but you KNOW that you'll break it.

My trans-breaking story sucks. I was driving to the MVA to pick up the tags for my Forester. Going 10mph in 2nd gear but not even really on the gas. Turned into the parking lot and up a little "ramp" and the car bucked really badly. Took a single tooth off of 2nd gear. Towed it home, dropped the tranny in my garage and built a straight-cut dogbox to go in it. Sucky part is that I only put, maybe, 2000 miles on the car before selling it. Then it got wrecked shortly after. It was awesome to drive a dogbox all over the place. I'll never forget a would-be race with an E-46 M3. One loud *clack* into 1st gear and the roar of an open downpipe, and he was scared. Wouldn't have mattered either way, I would have destroyed him had he tried. Good times in that car. I do miss it terribly.

Yeah, the guys that do the importing of the PPG gear sets said, "there's some machining of your orignal case to fit it... and they'll also need the guts from the wrx trans anyhow...

I'm still driving my car sparingly, i've my new radiator and oil pan to install this weekend, but I'm still feeling incomplete with missing the second gear.

I'm thinking I'll have to go with another stock unit until I can afford the alternative *something that wont break* I'm about half way paid off on the loan that I used to build my engine... I wonder if they'll give me another one when it's paid off for a 6spd...

I'd really rather own the car and build it up than buy something "loanable" I hate how banks wont loan me money to finish my 69 mustang... I mean yah, not often found at auction, but 7 grand to make a mustang cherry, isn't so bad, especially if I were to default on my loan, it'd be worth well over ten at auction even... oh well..

Legacy Rally Guy wrote:

BAC5.2 wrote:
...There are three mentalities.

1) Build the transmission so it won't break in the future and remove that weight from your mind.

2) Replace the transmission with another stock unit. It WILL break in the future, and you'll be wasting money (it's like renting vs. owning). You may have to replace 10 transmissions with stock before you get close to the cost of PPG's, but when you break that 11th transmission you are suddenly and forever in the red.

3) Suffer the gear ratios and go with a 6-speed. The 6-speed is a really nice transmission but I wouldn't make drag-racing your hobby if I had one.


It all boils down to funds and priorities.

To do a 6-speed swap "right" in my eyes, requires far more than a transmission and a clutch. If it were me, I would only do the full deal. Transmission, rear diff, driveshaft (or a DSS solid or ACPT carbon), axles, hubs, brembo's, etc. Ideally, you'd either do the 05+ setup with the new front struts or use an 04 setup but get the TIC big-hub kit to convert to the 05+ front wheel bearings. I'd probably use the DCCDPro diff controller, because wiring the stock controller up is a pain in the ass. It can be done, but that's a LOT of work. One day, I would like to take on the challenge of building my own auto DCCD controller. I feel like "auto-mode" is lacking on all DCCD controllers, even the stock one. The 08 should be better though.

So, cost analysis:

PPG - If you do the install yourself, expect just around $5k +/- a few hundred.

6-speed - Trans only you should expect around $4000. To do it "right" expect around $6000 to $7000. Sometimes you can get a deal and if you can hold out and piece it together over some time you can come out way below this.

You can replace it with stock for under $1000, but you KNOW that you'll break it.

My trans-breaking story sucks. I was driving to the MVA to pick up the tags for my Forester. Going 10mph in 2nd gear but not even really on the gas. Turned into the parking lot and up a little "ramp" and the car bucked really badly. Took a single tooth off of 2nd gear. Towed it home, dropped the tranny in my garage and built a straight-cut dogbox to go in it. Sucky part is that I only put, maybe, 2000 miles on the car before selling it. Then it got wrecked shortly after. It was awesome to drive a dogbox all over the place. I'll never forget a would-be race with an E-46 M3. One loud *clack* into 1st gear and the roar of an open downpipe, and he was scared. Wouldn't have mattered either way, I would have destroyed him had he tried. Good times in that car. I do miss it terribly.

Yeah, the guys that do the importing of the PPG gear sets said, "there's some machining of your orignal case to fit it... and they'll also need the guts from the wrx trans anyhow...

I'm still driving my car sparingly, i've my new radiator and oil pan to install this weekend, but I'm still feeling incomplete with missing the second gear.

I'm thinking I'll have to go with another stock unit until I can afford the alternative *something that wont break* I'm about half way paid off on the loan that I used to build my engine... I wonder if they'll give me another one when it's paid off for a 6spd...

I'd really rather own the car and build it up than buy something "loanable" I hate how banks wont loan me money to finish my 69 mustang... I mean yah, not often found at auction, but 7 grand to make a mustang cherry, isn't so bad, especially if I were to default on my loan, it'd be worth well over ten at auction even... oh well..

mmm. using loans and revolving credit to build major engine components = recipe for going BROKE.

I've got a small credit line I used to buy wheels and tires. It's hard to pay it off when there are things you want to buy...


FYI. I drive my 4.111:1 5spd with a 4 puck SPRUNG daily.. cable clutch. upgraded pressure plate, lightweight flywheel..
it's harsh, but doable - not that bad if most of your traveling is on the interstate (mine is)

Legacy Rally Guy wrote:Yeah, the guys that do the importing of the PPG gear sets said, "there's some machining of your orignal case to fit it... and they'll also need the guts from the wrx trans anyhow...

...I work at the shop that imports PPG gearsets. Actually, the only authorized Subaru PPG gear importer in North America.

You need ALL of the guts of a WRX case.... and the extension housing, because your stock center diff doesn't work.

A dogbox would work in your stock case. I had one in my old car.

BAC5.2 wrote:
...I work at the shop that imports PPG gearsets. Actually, the only authorized Subaru PPG gear importer in North America.

You need ALL of the guts of a WRX case.... and the extension housing, because your stock center diff doesn't work.

A dogbox would work in your stock case. I had one in my old car.

Ah, I see.. probably why it was so pricey...
I'd love a dogbox, but the guy on the phone said, "a dog box is way too much drama, always having to have it rebuilt" It's what I wanted at first, to have first and second in dog, maybe third and fourth too... It's not like I couldn't drive a dogbox, my s10 had a blown clutch line, so revmatching was key and my old 77 has a non synchro first gear, and pretty much all synchros are worn away.. so I double clutch it and rev match. I'm just saying I'm good at handling akward setups.. so I dont think I'd wear the dog box prematurely. How long do they usually last under normal driving conditions.. *yes, I'd love to daily drive a dogbox.. *

How much would it be for a dog or "half dog" box?
I'd hate to drop a grand on getting a trans to my shop and not having anything better than stock.

scuzzy wrote:
mmm. using loans and revolving credit to build major engine components = recipe for going BROKE.

I've got a small credit line I used to buy wheels and tires. It's hard to pay it off when there are things you want to buy...

FYI. I drive my 4.111:1 5spd with a 4 puck SPRUNG daily.. cable clutch. upgraded pressure plate, lightweight flywheel..
it's harsh, but doable - not that bad if most of your traveling is on the interstate (mine is)

lol, yeah, I learned that the hard way.. It was when I had no bills I spent my money on stupid stuff.. but what I've done the last three times is put away like $50 a month away in a second account, and then only get enough of a loan I could pay it off in one year... So when I pulled out $3050 for the engine / suspension / driveline rebuild... paid it off in 7mo, then later pulled out another $2,500 for wheels, brakes, tires, mounts, turbo, intercooler short shift linkage, clutch kit, hood scoop... My banker is like, "um, that's an old car... and that's a lot of money to put into an old car..." I just smile and say, "thank you"

Yeah, I think my unsprung 6 puck was fine for daily driving, but one nice rip in second and it went buhbye... with hydraulic clutch and quite a bit of in town driving..

Good results from a lightweight flywheel?

Legacy Rally Guy wrote:
Ah, I see.. probably why it was so pricey...
I'd love a dogbox, but the guy on the phone said, "a dog box is way too much drama, always having to have it rebuilt" It's what I wanted at first, to have first and second in dog, maybe third and fourth too... It's not like I couldn't drive a dogbox, my s10 had a blown clutch line, so revmatching was key and my old 77 has a non synchro first gear, and pretty much all synchros are worn away.. so I double clutch it and rev match. I'm just saying I'm good at handling akward setups.. so I dont think I'd wear the dog box prematurely. How long do they usually last under normal driving conditions.. *yes, I'd love to daily drive a dogbox.. *

How much would it be for a dog or "half dog" box?
I'd hate to drop a grand on getting a trans to my shop and not having anything better than stock.

What shop did you call? Doesn't sound like you spoke to me. We don't recommend dogboxes for daily driving, but that's not to say you can't do it (in fact, we have plenty of customers who do).

We do not build half-dogboxes. We did one to see, and it breaks things. The hard 1-2 shift will break the 3-4 engagement hub. So we had the 3-4 hub made of billet. Then it started breaking the synchros. Too much drama, so we refuse to build them now.

Lightweight flywheels help preserve the gearset, but hurt the launch.