legacycentral bbs

Again, this is mainly geared towards Dan or anyone else that's setup a Link. This is just a list of questions, small or large that I had when reviewing the configuration.

- Fuel Section

- Did you use a 2D or 3D table for the IAT fuel correction table?

- Injector deadtime, are the default values alright for now?

- Overrun fuel cut, is it needed?

- Are idle load trims needed if the Idle control system is setup properly?


- Ignition Section

- Did you use the ECT ignition trim setting?

- Same question for the IAT ignition trim setting?

- Knock control, what is a good start for the frequency?

- Dwell times, the help says to get this info for common coils from your link dealer...?


- Limits Section

- Map Limit, is it reference to MAP or MPG, i.e. is it an absolute or gauge reading?


- Aux. Outputs Section

- ISC solenoid, is 200 hz a good starting freq?

- Boost solenoid, is 20 hz a good starting point?

- For AirCon Clutch, under clutch release, there is an option for %FF, which in doing some searching is % fuel flow. However I don't know how the link would know the % fuel flow...

- Tachometer, what duty cycle and multiplier did you use?


- Digital Inputs

- Speed, what settings did you use to get the speed input correct?


- Analog Channel

- What type of sensor did you use for ECT & IAT sensor, the std bosch NTC


I think that's it for the initial setup review.

Legacy777 wrote:Again, this is mainly geared towards Dan or anyone else that's setup a Link. This is just a list of questions, small or large that I had when reviewing the configuration.

- Fuel Section

- Did you use a 2D or 3D table for the IAT fuel correction table?

- Injector deadtime, are the default values alright for now?

- Overrun fuel cut, is it needed?

- Are idle load trims needed if the Idle control system is setup properly?

I was using a 2D IAT correction map, but it was lame. The correction you need at high vacuum is different than the correction at high load. With no correction, I'd see about a point variance at about a 50° swing in temperature. When I was tuning for my new injectors two weeks ago, I changed to a 3D map and was going to start tuning with that.


For injector deadtime, I left it at what it was on the basemap. I used, I think, the Subaru version 5-6 basemap. I see that it isn't in the 3.35 software, but they still have the 3.29 software up, which might still have that version basemap. Otherwise a check on the forum may yield good results.


Overrun fuel cut will save you gas. It shuts the injectors off when letting off the throttle in gear. It doesn't hurt anything.

I'm not totally sure about the idle load trims. i didn't do anything with them, but my idle wasn't the greatest anyways. I guess I didn't really care as long as it didn't surge really bad. Part of it might have been the fairly hot Delta cams I put in. I had a good amount of exhaust reversion with those cams. I could tell by the carbon on the lower part of the intake manifold when on stock cams the whole maifold is squeaky clean.

- Ignition Section

- Did you use the ECT ignition trim setting?

- Same question for the IAT ignition trim setting?

- Knock control, what is a good start for the frequency?

- Dwell times, the help says to get this info for common coils from your link dealer...?

I personally was not using the ECT or IAT ignition trim settings. They aren't a bad idea, and I was going to work my way towards them after retuning with the new injectors. I ran for a year and a half without them though. For the most part I ran 22psi daily. I liked to mess with it often though, doing some logs here and there to make sure everything was kosher.

As for a starting point for the knock control, Normal engine noise for me was up to a 6. Audible knock was at around 100. the scale goes up to 1200 or something like that. I set it at 100. Every motor is different though. The rapid changes and spikes are what you need to look for. When shifting, there often is a slight knock when letting off the throttle. That is fairly normal. My car went rich when shifting and it still did it, so I didn't worry about it.



You bring up a good point with the dwell times. I never really looked into it, and maybe that's why I was getting misfires after about 2000 miles on a set of plugs. I will definitely be looking into that when I get everything into another shell.

- Limits Section

- Map Limit, is it reference to MAP or MPG, i.e. is it an absolute or gauge reading?

I want to say its referenced to MAP, since I had to raise it far above the MGP I was running. I was up to about 180kPa and I have it set at 290kPa. Its pretty violent when you do hit it, lol.

- Aux. Outputs Section

- ISC solenoid, is 200 hz a good starting freq?

- Boost solenoid, is 20 hz a good starting point?

- For AirCon Clutch, under clutch release, there is an option for %FF, which in doing some searching is % fuel flow. However I don't know how the link would know the % fuel flow...

- Tachometer, what duty cycle and multiplier did you use?

I left the ISC at 200hz. I may have been able to smooth my idle out a little bit by playing with it. Cleaning my 200k mile IAC valve may have helped too. I will definitely be cleaning the valve when I put those other heads on, and messing with that frequency if necessary.


For the BCS, 20hz is where you want to be at. Any higher and you start to get boost overruns at spoolup. Like 5psi overruns


For the tach, I'm at 50% duty cycle and 1.0 multiplier. It works great. If yours doesn't, play with multiplier. I had to at first, as it was just slightly bouncing off of zero not matter what. That might have been with a 0 multiplier, but I cannot remember.



As far as the AC stuff, I have no idea. I haven't had AC since I hit that deer at about 100mph four years ago. Its a long story

- Digital Inputs

- Speed, what settings did you use to get the speed input correct?

That was on my to-do list. I was going to get the gear dependent boost going. I was seeing huge variances between 4th (what I tune in) and 5th. Like 4-5psi, which was not good. the only thing that sucks about the gear dependent boost control mode is that its a 2D table (maybe different with the G3?), which means partial throttle full boost. So take your pick.

- Analog Channel

- What type of sensor did you use for ECT & IAT sensor, the std bosch NTC


I think that's it for the initial setup review.

I'm using the bosch IAT sensor. It works well for me. Its pretty fast acting.

For coolant I have it set on the Bosch NTC. It is right in line with my Autometer gauge.



Anything else just hollar. Sorry I didn't notice this thread sooner.

Thanks for all the comments Dan!

I'm using that subaru v5-6 base map as a starting point as well.

I'll have to look over everything and your comments.


When I go to start this thing up....what exactly do I need to do to get the car to at least idle and semi run? I don't plan to drive it.....just want to get the engine to at least run and idle, and then I'll have it brought to the shop that's going to tune it.

Mine fired off right away at 9.2:1. It ran, poorly, but it ran. I was connected to the ECU before I fired it off so I could play with the main injector scaling right away to get the idle stabilised.

On a warm engine, Subaru's seem to be very forgiving as far as fuel at idle. I can idle the thing at 19:1 if I want to. The Delta cams make for a really nice lope starting at the mid 14's.


Once I got the fuel roughly where I wanted, I messed with the spark advance to get the idle better yet. I settled around 16° of advance for a decent idle.


As far as driving it, your fuel can be anywhere from 13:1 to 16:1, off boost. Obviously it runs best around stoich at low loads. I didn't have to mess with the off-boost timing much, except for highway cruising. It was surging a bit on the highway. On the highway I try to maintain a 15.2-15.5:1 afr and about 45-46° of advance for fuel economy. During hte summer I've gotten close to 28mpg. The EPA doesn't like that, but my wallet does




Have you figued out how you are mounting the ECU yet? I was able to use one of the Link brackets directly in the leftward stock hole, and made a flat bracket to extend to the other Link bracket from the rightward stock hole. My plugs were pointed down so I could still have acess to them without pulling the dash. If Subaru had put the ECU in the proper place from the get-go, this wouldn't be such a pain in the ass.

I haven't really looked into mounting it yet. I've got to do that, and see what's the best way to orient things. I'll have to build some sort of bracket.

Thanks again for the comments. I'll have to print this thread out.

I do have a two more questions.

Do our cars have rising or falling dwells?

Did you install a suppressor capacitor on the coil pack wiring?


I was going to run the positive leads back to the battery, but I may not. I need to check the voltage at the ECU and see how much drop I have, and compare that to the voltage at the injectors. It may be more closely related going through the harness. However.....I guess that may not really even matter, since you can scale things up or down a little.

I checked the voltage at the ECU and the injectors and there is almost 0.5 volt difference.

To by quite honest, that may be one of the reasons the stock setup runs a little rich, because the injector dead is off. The ECU is seeing voltages that are lower then what the injectors are seeing.

One more question Dan. Did you use the existing port on the intake runner to read vacuum/boost for the MAP sensor?

Legacy777 wrote:I haven't really looked into mounting it yet. I've got to do that, and see what's the best way to orient things. I'll have to build some sort of bracket.

Thanks again for the comments. I'll have to print this thread out.

I do have a two more questions.

Do our cars have rising or falling dwells?

Did you install a suppressor capacitor on the coil pack wiring?


I was going to run the positive leads back to the battery, but I may not. I need to check the voltage at the ECU and see how much drop I have, and compare that to the voltage at the injectors. It may be more closely related going through the harness. However.....I guess that may not really even matter, since you can scale things up or down a little.

I left mine on rising dwell since that is what it was at and it seemed to run fine. When I fired mine up, I did very little except adjust the fuel to get it to run decent. Aside from my occasional light load hiccup(which I haven't been able to figure out, maybe just a standalone gremlin) , I've had no problems. It seems to hold timing just fine under load.


I did install the suppressor. I followed the instructions and put wired the lead to the coil pack power, and mounted it to a point that has ground. I wired it right next to the coil pack and mounted it to one of the many empty posts on the intake that I have, since I'm not using any of the factory fuel lines or coolant lines.


I know I had to do something with the main relay wiring, but I can't remember right now, since it is 3 AM I want to say it was something that was simple but I tossled over it for a day or two.

One more question Dan. Did you use the existing port on the intake runner to read vacuum/boost for the MAP sensor?

Are you talking about the port the aux purge control uses or whatever it is on the passenger side runner? I did use that one, but I got away from it when I had the motor apart in January. The trouble with that port is that under load, the pressure waves traveling back and forth are significant, and it lead to major fluctuations in the boost I read. I have my Zeitronix MAP sensor hooked up to that port right now and the pulses are more than obvious. If you are going to have the intake off, I say tap as many sources as you need off the plenum while its off. When a source in on the runner, you get several psi spikes and dips in the signal. As you may already know, the port on the throttle body is a ported vacuum source that goes to zero (mgp) when the throttle is closed, so it is of zero use when you let off the throttle.








As far as the injector and ECU voltage being off, that seems to be the theme with the first gen legacy, ie, a really weak wiring system. That's why I'm half tempted to rebuild half of the harness from scratch. But I'm only half temped, since it's a serious PITA.





Another I want to say is leave youself some room with the wiring. I mounted the ECU plugs down and left several inches of wire so I could easily pull the plugs on the ECU in case I want to weld on the car. It may be fine, but I'm not wiling to take that risk with a spendy little box of automotive grade electronics. I made a big enough oops with my head stud debacle. I don't need to double that cost with frying my Link.

I did install the suppressor. I followed the instructions and put wired the lead to the coil pack power, and mounted it to a point that has ground. I wired it right next to the coil pack and mounted it to one of the many empty posts on the intake that I have, since I'm not using any of the factory fuel lines or coolant lines.

Cool, I'll go ahead and do that.

I know I had to do something with the main relay wiring, but I can't remember right now, since it is 3 AM I want to say it was something that was simple but I tossled over it for a day or two.

Let me know if you remember it

I've been looking over the wiring diagrams pretty thoroughly, and think I have a pretty good handle on the wiring. I think matching up mostly everything to how the stock ECU will help alleviate some of those potential issues.

Are you talking about the port the aux purge control uses or whatever it is on the passenger side runner? I did use that one, but I got away from it when I had the motor apart in January. The trouble with that port is that under load, the pressure waves traveling back and forth are significant, and it lead to major fluctuations in the boost I read. I have my Zeitronix MAP sensor hooked up to that port right now and the pulses are more than obvious. If you are going to have the intake off, I say tap as many sources as you need off the plenum while its off. When a source in on the runner, you get several psi spikes and dips in the signal. As you may already know, the port on the throttle body is a ported vacuum source that goes to zero (mgp) when the throttle is closed, so it is of zero use when you let off the throttle.

I'm talking about the one on the #1 intake runner used for the stock pressure sensor. You can see it in this pic.
http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... P_7908.JPG

I've had pretty consistent boost readings from the tap on that #1 runner. However, it does make sense to just go ahead and tap the main plenum area for the MAP sensor. I'll probably make one extra tap, and cap it off.

As far as the injector and ECU voltage being off, that seems to be the theme with the first gen legacy, ie, a really weak wiring system. That's why I'm half tempted to rebuild half of the harness from scratch. But I'm only half temped, since it's a serious PITA.

Agreed.....It'd be nice to put new wiring in, but I don't really want to hassle with it. I'll be checking all the sensors though to make sure the wiring has good, full continuity, and if I run across any that aren't up to par, I'll run new wiring for that sensor.


And yes....I'll make sure to leave myself some extra wire length.

Legacy777 wrote:

I'm talking about the one on the #1 intake runner used for the stock pressure sensor. You can see it in this pic.
http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... P_7908.JPG

I've had pretty consistent boost readings from the tap on that #1 runner. However, it does make sense to just go ahead and tap the main plenum area for the MAP sensor. I'll probably make one extra tap, and cap it off.

Yeah, I was using that one, but then I tapped the plenum right behind the coil pack for the MAP sensor. I moved my gauge and Zeitronix sensor over to that particular port and thats when I started to see the fluctuations. I only see those fluctuations when I get at or over my wastegate boost which is .9 bar. At lower boost it doesn't show up for me. I think when you get higher in the boost is when it shows up. When I get home I need to see if I have any saved logs that I can show. I wasn't huge fluctuations, more like the signal I was getting was above and below what my actual boost was. Say I was at 22psi, the signal danced around that level at say 20 and 24 psi. It was very fast fluctuations too, which leads me to believe that was from the pressure differentials going back and forth in the riser. It makes sense to me, since on NA motors, you can design the intakes so that pressure wave hits the valve right as it opens.

Cool,

Yeah I'll just plan to tap two spots.

What type of fitting did you use? Just a 90 deg brass fitting?

Yeah, I found some 90° 1/8" hose barb to 1/8 NPT at Axman. I haven't seen them at a hardware store unfortunately.

Is this the site?
http://www.axman.com/

I didn't see anything in their products section.

Axman is a small shain up here that sells surplus stuff. They have all kinds of random stuff like tons of electronics components, motors, and all kinds of random crap. I was perusing through the store and found them so I bought a few. I should have taken as many as they had.

Kind of like these

http://www.fastfittings.com/page/1073165

Cool. I'll see if I can find some locally, if not, I'll have to order them.

Bump. You're not getting any younger, Josh

I know.....Ike kind of killed this weekend, and things haven't gotten back to normal yet.....so this project is not moving nearly as fast as I'd like.

You don't like wiring in a nurricane? wtf?

No real update on the progress. Too much shit going on right now. However I thought I'd mention that for those that have a G2 or G3 based ECU Link has updated the PCLink software to include "quick tune" which can aid in setting up a tune via a preset AFR.

Yup yup. I saw that when they released the G4 Storm. It will make light load tuning fast and easy. Personally, I wouldn't trust it too much for high load tuning. Power tuning should always be done one pull at a time, checking and adjusting after each one is logged.





Now. If they would only open up the closed loop boost control. They've been getting some flak on their forum lately, so they might get on it.



At least I figured out that if I hook up the speedo sensor, I can use the boost-by-gear mode. It will be a crude 2D table for each gear, but at least boost will be consistant between the higher gears.

To my knowledge and everything I've been told CL boost control works on the G3. Is it different for the G2?

They haven't released it for any system yet, according to what they say on their own forum. Its "in the pipeline" apparently, and they've had more pressing things to work on like getting the G4 out. There are some unhappy campers over on the Link forum, especially the guys that need the on-board datalogging. Some guys can't really run a laptop in their sandrail and stuff like that.



I'm guessing CL boost control will come out with the next update. Or at least before I get my stuff swapped into another shell.

Well the guy I talked with at Link USA was pretty atimate that it was working and that I shouldn't listen to crap on the internet....or something to that effect.

I guess I'll have to get off my ass and get it installed to find out

I'm guessing you talked to Neil. What I'm talking about whas said by the Link rep on their own forum.



But yes. Get to wiring, or I might have to come down there...

Yeah I talked with Neil......and yeah I know....I need to get to wiring.....really the big obsticle is pulling the intake manifold and tapping it for the IAT sensor and adding additional boost ports. I still need to grab the 90 deg ports.

I don't like doing work in small batches, hour here and there. I need a good days worth of time. I may have to take some vacation to finish things up.