legacycentral bbs

I'm doing my first rebuild as a school project (I'm in an auto tech program). I don't really have much money right now, but I really wanted to rebuild a Subaru motor, I just had to get my hands in one. I've got a million questions and I don't know where else to turn.

I need some advice on what to replace, and what I can get away with reusing. The engine is an EJ22EZ from a 1998 Legacy L (wagon, baby!), it had 204,000 miles on it. I do have a copy of the factory service manual.

I haven't measured it yet, but the class require's me to measure everything. I haven't taken the heads apart yet. I have taken the block apart completely. Unleash your wisdom, guys!

Engine Block Outside:
-When I took the timing belt tensioner off I (like an idiot) forgot to compress it, and just pulled the belt off. Will the tensioner be okay? Should I replace it? I haven't tested it yet.
-The water pump looks new, I don't think I need to worry about that.
-I haven't inspected the oil pump yet, but I think I'll just install new seals.
-I intend to get a an OEM gasket set, I don't want to push my luck with gaskets (~$230, link).
-Do head bolts have to be replaced?

Engine Inside:
-Like an idiot (not my doing this time!) the surfaces where the two black halves meet got scratched up from prying them apart. What is the best way of fixing this? Can I file it, or should I really have a machine shop take to it?
-Bearings weren't too worn (couldn't see any copper) but bearing #3 had a gouge in it from what appeared to be a defect on the crank (a small line of excess metal). Bearing #5 and the crank had smaller gouges where it seems some foreign matter came in through the oil gallery. I may have to get the crank machined, and if that's what I'm supposed to do, can I skip it (I know that'd be pushing it); or, if I get it machined, where can I get oversize bearings?
-Pistons and cylinders 1 and 3 had very good wear, nothing to worry about there.
-Pistons and cylinders 2 and 4 had lots of scuff marks on the top skirts and walls. Do they have to be replaced? What do pistons cost?
-What should I do about piston rings? Replace them, obviously, but are there any cool options? A friend said that some engines have aftermarket low friction rings you can get, is there a supplier for Subaru rings like that?
-Wear from piston rings looks good.
-Rod bearings look good.
-Carbon build up is minimal and even.
-EDIT: Holy crap, I was looking at www.subarugenuineparts.com, piston rings and bearings are going to run like $300?!? Aw man, can I go with aftermarket ones, are they okay?

Other:
-The clutch needs to be replaced, and there are clear signs of massive overheating on the pressure plate and flywheel. Is an overheated flywheel machinable? How important is getting the flywheel machined? I'd like to get an OEM clutch (~$280, link) for the quality, but are there cheaper clutches I can get that are almost as good?
-I intend to get an OEM tuneup kit (~$60, link) to minimize things I have to worry about it it doesn't run properly.

Random Notes:
-I've been doing a good job of keeping my parts in order.
-I have a running list of things to buy, I'll post it later so you guys can add to it.
-I have Subaru Bucks so getting OEM parts won't hurt my wallet so bad for the first $400.


Sorry for the bombardment with questions, my teacher is busy as hell and doesn't know anything about Subaru's specifically anyway. I've been through the stickies for engines, and searched NASIOC for tips too, but it's hard to find all the information I need in one place. Thanks guys.

I would say your best bet is ask the teacher. That is his/her job
to help and teach.
I would not have chosen a subaru engine for a first project.

I know it may sound a bit counter-intuitive, but I HIGHLY recommend buying a Haynes manual for $20, even though you have a factory manual. Their engine rebuild procedures are laid out in a manner that's way easier for the layman to understand, and everything is explained very well. I know of quite a few people who have successfully rebuilt a motor with little experience and a Haynes for instruction.

The big downside to a Haynes manual is that it's pretty condensed compared to the factory manual, but in a lot of cases I still refer to the Haynes first, and then fill in any missing details if neccessary with the FSM. Have fun!

I do have the Haynes manual, I'll take the advice to heart.

The Tensioner should be fine. As for the clutch, just get an Exedy clutch kit off ebay for probably $175.

Wow, these seem to good to be true, are these really legitimate?

There are certain things that you can get $$OEM$$ which are more costly but safer to use in places that count.I mean places where poor quality means your motor breaking and you being pissed.Then there are OEM parts that are fine to buy if you can afford it but if you go aftermarket and the part fails or doesnt last as long your only out that part,and nothing else is broken Example- clutch (exedy is fine).

As far as bearings and rings ect. are concerned you should go with either OEM or expensive aftermarket,not cheap aftermarket,in your case OEM will be the where you want to go.I would say the same thing for gaskets,there are only a couple other good gasket companies out there for this engine and they arent much cheaper than OEM.

Dont bother replacing head bolts, some do , but i havt got an answer back from them yet as to why.At least not on a stock non turbo engine.

As far as pistons you are starting to get into trouble.Pistons mean boring out or at least honing,boring or honing means a machine shop in your future on top of buying the pistons and rings,and bearings....and gaskets......and whatever you break in the process.Not seeing the engine i cant help you on deciding whether its needed.Its amazing what carnage you can turn a blind eye to in a subby engine without it becoming a problem but its not always wise at the same time.

I am currently rebuilding my ej22t,i am shooting for modest power at first and im not going overkill yet i have this so far:

Pistons - $450

Bearings - $150

Gaskets - $200

Machine work - $400 +-

Misc - $200 +-

You can see how rebuilding an engine can bring you around $1500 real quick and thats without suprises and doing it yourself.I would say counting on less than $1000 is totally unrealistic if you want to be sure its right.Briggs and stratton engines however are easy and cheap


Oh and this place is handy http://www.importperformanceparts.net/

Ehhh, the prices for parts won't be anywhere near those ^^^^ for a stock NA rebuild.

Here's an example of a kit that would be plenty sufficient for a stock motor, and it has just about everything for under $400...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ENGINE-K ... enameZWDVW

You could go that route . I wonder if that is one of those kits that comes with the famous oil pump gasket,which subaru doesnt even make.

gijonas wrote:You could go that route . I wonder if that is one of those kits that comes with the famous oil pump gasket,which subaru doesnt even make.

LOL, so you'd buy forged pistons for a STOCK N/A build?

I don't know how many motors you've built, but $400 is an average-ish price for a good quality, NON-performance master rebuild kit. I used and sold Rock Auto and Topline parts for YEARS and can personally attest that although the stuff isn't exactly Cosworth (lol), they're plenty adequate for a stock application. I can pretty much guarantee that a reman N/A 2.2, whether a crate motor or one built by a decent machine shop, uses the same if not very very similar parts to the example I posted. Building a totally stock N/A motor with forged internals, etc. is a total waste of $$$$ IMHO.

Dude two words....chill pill!

I never implied that he needed forged internals for his build!!!

I used my build as an example of what things can cost when you start getting into it,in fact i even stated that he may not even need new pistons .

Yes i have experience with engines,i am a mechanic and i own a repair shop and i work mostly on subarus.Yes you can get by with the parts shown and yes it may run fine...but for how long?? as long as a stock motor? sorry.And i am familiar with the reman engines you speak of which use these parts,they are the same ones that come in with chowdered cam bearings and blown headgaskets and pieces of some workers nachos in the oil pan 30-40 50,000 miles later often enough.He is free to decide on part quality and im not steering him towards any extremes.Just being realistic

I digress.

Hee hee, no ill feelings here, gijonas, hope the same is mutual. I'm simply pointing out (and standing by the fact) that the OP can indeed build a motor on something of a budget, even an EJ22. I'm not sure what other parts one would recommend to someone who stated they didn't have much money.

I have built a lot of motors as well, from Hondas to AMCs to circle-track cars, etc. and for people of widely varying budgets...no failures in over 20 years so far, knock on wood. I'm sure you know as well as I do that most "rebuilt" motor failures aren't due to the parts used so much as how well it was assembled. Chowdered cam bearings and nachos haven't showed up in any of my engine kits so far.

motor failures aren't due to the parts used so much as how well it was assembled.

I do agree to an extent.... as well as maintenance and use!!

Rereading the original question i now fiond myself wondering if shinobi has plans on even using the engine beyond getting graded for the class??.If not that woiuld change a lot in my mind lol,like reusing all gaskets parts and fluids.

Reusing the fluids....ha!

Alright guys, I have a ton of information for you, mostly pictures. I didn't take the time to make smaller versions, so they are full sized 3072 x 2304, and about 3MB each. Be patient, they're very detailed (except the pictures of the crank defect, couldn't get a focus on it.)


The upward facing sides of the pistons are the ones that took wear, so those are the sides I took pictures of.

http://home.comcast.net/~subrosa135/car ... _sides.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~subrosa135/car ... _sides.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~subrosa135/car ... p_side.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~subrosa135/car ... p_side.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~subrosa135/car ... p_side.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~subrosa135/car ... p_side.JPG


Bearing 3 has a gouge down the center that appears to be from a defect on the crank. Bearings 4 and 5 have scratches that appear to be from foreign matter.

http://home.comcast.net/~subrosa135/car ... 1_left.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~subrosa135/car ... _right.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~subrosa135/car ... 2_left.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~subrosa135/car ... _right.JPG


Out of focus pictures of the crank where bearing 3 was.

http://home.comcast.net/~subrosa135/car ... ddle_1.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~subrosa135/car ... ddle_2.JPG




As you can see my cylinder taper is okay, but my out-of-round is way out of spec on all but one cylinder. Despite this I think I've decided that I am not going to have it machined. I simply don't have the capital for machine work and new pistons, I sure wish I did. The whole running car only cost me $300, so I'm not going to cry myself to sleep if this thing shits the bed at 50,000 miles. In a way I'm also kind of curious how it'll hold up. What do you guys think?

I'm going to get a Subaru gasket kit, bearings, and piston rings and hope for the best. This by no means concludes this topic, in the mean time I'll be getting quotes on these parts and hear your suggestions, which I look forward to. I'll keep you guy updated, this is a learning experience for me.

EDIT: Do the piston pins have markings that indicate which end faces the front of the engine? Those are the one piece that I didn't keep straight after removal.

Seen worse seen better.2 and 4 pistons do not look too hot at all.Bearings look like the norm from an engine with that mileage,and like you said the crank pics arent much help.What do the crank surfaces measure out to? And do you have cylinder pics?

I definately say that without machine work its anyones guess what will happen,especially if using those pistons again.Also did the car burn oil?

Wondering if someone has been in there before and done some work.Most aftermarket pistons dont have the wrist pin offset like stock or better pistons do,the wear on those two bad pistons looks pretty random.

I haven't measured the crank yet, and I didn't think cylinder pictures would be easy to take. The cylinders all had the cross-hatch pattern except where the pistons rubbed, and the rubbing on that wall is just as bad as the corresponding piston. There was no ridge at the top, but from the looks of it the cylinders were designed not to form a ridge. I'll try to take more pictures. The class is on Tuesdays, but I may get time in before then.

True cylinder pics may be hard to light correctly

A ridge would indicate pretty severe wear,Id say typical not to see one on one of these motors.Too bad about the cylinder wear,and from what ive seen its pretty much impossible to wear away subaru factory honing marks.My opinions hold strong on needing additional attention to be done "right" .I really hope this class isnt dependant on you spending $100's to get a good grade.

As much as I'd like to get it done right, I by no means have to. The point of the class is that I know what should be done.

I wonder how long it'll hold up with that wear. The lack of grooves on the cylinder and piston skirt won't hold oil as well, it's only going to get worse faster, and I'm sure I couldn't just flip the pistons around to even out the wear, that'd would just be asking for trouble.

The point of the class is that I know what should be done.

good!

it's only going to get worse faster, and I'm sure I couldn't just flip the pistons around to even out the wear, that'd would just be asking for trouble.

yes indeed.


I really have to say that if you arent going to do all you can,then spending any money at all on it beyond whats needed for the class is just a waste.If you want to build one of these engines after learning about it you can find a better donor later and use your new experience on it,this one is just a lost cause if you want to go on the cheap....once again IMHO.

I feel like a loser asking this, but what else do you think I can get away with not replacing? That is, with the expectation that this won't make it to 100,000 miles, what will have little impact on the longevity of the engine? How bad are those crank bearings? The rod bearings looked good, minor pitting at worst...

I will get rings and rehone it, as well as replace gaskets (yes, and fluids :p). I also plan to get a new timing belt.

once again,doing it this way that is all up in the air without anyone seeing it themselves.My prediction if reusing that stuff is anywhere between 1 and 20,000 miles lol.

Right now I'm looking at getting:

Gasket Kit, Subaru ($226)
Bearings, either Toga ($139) or Topline ($90)
Piston Rings, either Ross ($80) or Topline ($52)

Timing Belt, Subaru
Fuel Filter, Subaru
Three Bond 1215 Gasket, Subaru

Any thoughts on those aftermarket brands? Topline is suspiciously cheap, but then again so is my whole project. These were from the site posted above, http://www.importperformanceparts.net/

I haven't had much luck finding other options for parts suppliers, but then again I haven't looked to much in between doing school work.

I am in a very similar boat Shinobi. except that I'm way out of high school now.

First thing you should do is be thankful that at least you go to a school which has an auto/machine class! Back when I went to high school (damn I sound old), we had one -- but of course the new school does not. Nearly no one I know from college or whatever, had a class like that (I took 4 yrs of metal shop and also the engine course). And I went to HS pretty close to you Shinobi, actually...

Anyways, I have an N/A EJ22 that I'm rebuilding, it had no troubles that *made* me pull it apart, it was just leaking out of every orifice so I yanked it instead of working to replace seals and stuff with it in the car. It had about 190k on it.

I got the Nippon rings off ebay, and an ACL bearing kit. I didnt know much about ACL bearings but the local machine shop stocked them also, so that made me feel good. They did the honing and checked the crank, cleaned and polished it all up. I had the heads rebuilt locally, I didnt do anything but unbolt them and haul them over there.

at first I didnt want to do bearings but since I was cracking the cases to get it cleaned and honed so I could re-ring... hell, why not. however, the bearings look really good. no scoring. no damage.

my cylinders looked great also, good cross-hatch still and no groove/ridge. oh well, it looks fantastic now as it's freshly re-honed and waiting for me to get off my azz...

I am most suspect over the gasket kit from ebay that I got.... I used the exhaust gaskets on my 94 since I pulled the headers off to remove a rusty/rattling heat shield (the 94 is my daily driver and the rattling started to really piss me off), and one of them blew out in the span of just a few days. So I question the gaskets and seals that came with the whole gasket set... I've already dumped a ton of money into this POS car so I wanted to cheap out, but I dont ever want to have to replace things like a rear seal again.

it sounds like you are on the right track though, FWIW I am re-using my pistons as they look great after I scraped the crud off, and I have a shitload of pics if you want to try and compare. I am also polishing the piston tops just like I do on my bikes.

if you want to share some addtl info, send me a PM.

Good start.I wouldnt bother with ross or toga stuff on the project,thats like polishing a turd.