legacycentral bbs

"Why is the engine hoist lifting the car?" You might be wondering. Because thats what it takes to get the engine out of a camry. But I'm getting ahead of myself.
The phone rings. Its the father-in-law. "Wanna swap an engine in a Camry?" he asks, "I found a great deal on another all-trac on craigslist."
"No problem." I say, thinking "if i can pull a motor, replace the clutch, and reinstall in my legacy in about an hour and a half, how hard can a toyota be?" Very hard. And frustrating, thats how.
First off, the wiring doesn't come off of the car. You see that bundle of wires sitting on the windshield? Thats the engine/trans harness. Then the axles have to come out, the exhaust has to come off, and the rad comes out. After you've dissconected all the heater lines, fuel lines, speedo cable, etc. and removed the entire front subframe and swaybar w/mounting plates the motor and trans can then be lowered together onto a dolly. At which point the front of the car must be lifted high enough to roll it out, pissing ATF all over your driveway. Then you get to find about a dozen bolts that secure the tranny and all its brackets to the engine.
I can't wait to go back together with it.
Moral of the story, Subaru > Toyota. But I'm sure you already knew that. Thanks for sharing in my plight, anyway.

That looks like loads of fun. I love the Subaru engineers. They did it right.

Just makes me appreciate Subaru just that much more Eh it's a learn process lol.

Still beats the Nazis.

evolutionmovement wrote:Still beats the Nazis.

lol, yeah what do they say about bmw's, if the timing belt goes on it just be sure to drive it into a tree while you have enough momentum to total the car otherwise it will cost you more to repair the broken chain lol.

I'm mostly familiar with VWs and Audis. Pure trash, but I guess when they know their poor electrical and mechanical systems will lose them so many of their customers, they might as well be able to bleed them in the service department for a few years while denying warranty claims for stuff, like, oh I don't know, maybe blown engines caused by poorly designed oil pickups. Maybe if they spent half the time designing things right than designing them to be unnecessarily expensive to work on and prone to failure, they'd have more repeat customers. Looks and a decent interior may get someone the first time, possibly a second if they're masochists or apologists, but only an idiot would give them a third chance. If it was a choice between a Chinese-made car of a VW product, I'd choose the bus pass.

But I do have to admit the R8 is one sick looking car and maybe one of the only real modern supercar designs out there. But at least that's an exotic and nobody expects them to be cheap or serviceable.

magicmike wrote:

evolutionmovement wrote:Still beats the Nazis.

lol, yeah what do they say about bmw's, if the timing belt goes on it just be sure to drive it into a tree while you have enough momentum to total the car otherwise it will cost you more to repair the broken chain lol.

That's not unique to German cars, it's called an interference engine. All you gotta do is replace the timing belt every 50k miles or so and you don't have to worry about it. It's a simple job on a BMW. Basically what happens when the belt snaps is it shakes up crap inside the engine, usually will bend some valves, and occasionally will break some rockers.

I'd like to say that Subarus are easier to work on than my BMW was, but so far that just isn't true. Some of the crap on this car just isn't intuitive, like all the crap you have to take off just to get the intake box off. My BMW was super easy to work on, the only trouble I had was rusty bolts on a 20 year old car.

Newer BMWs are a different story. And VWs are a nightmare, not difficult from what I've seen, just so damn much goes wrong, and it costs so much to fix.

Evolutionmovement, what's funny about the R8, is it probably isn't terribly expensive to maintain, especially for the cost of the car, since it shares parts with other engines.

There are no cheap VWAG engines, but relative to what it is, yes, it's probably not bad (and the looks and, from what I've read, the drive, would probably be worth it). Still, I've worked on their shit boxes with front mount engines so I can only imagine the horror of a mid-engine application. Some of their stuff doesn't LOOK terrible, but when you get into it you find all kinds of things that were done purely to make working on the cars difficult as there doesn't even seem to be a production expedient to it. Some American and Japanese cars are lousy to work on, but don't use stupid hardware and the difficulty comes from them just trying to throw the car together with little regard for fixing it after, but it's not an intentional goal as VW's engineers seem to be assigned. And I've never seen wires and electrical fittings as bad as the ones VW uses (d?) and that includes an old E-Type (that car had other reasons to suck). The Audi electrical parts and wiring I've seen seem a little better, but the engineering's as bad.

The Subaru engine bay can be pretty much disassembled with a 10, 12, & 14mm. Still prefer working on boats to cars, though.

Yeah but you're comparing a FWD transverse engine car to an AWD horizontally opposed engine car. There are no similarities.

I had an 89 toyota pickup with a 22RE 4 cylinder in it and it was pretty easy to work on. Maybe even easier than my subaru

If I was rich, and they made it... Audi R8 TDI. No question.

I haven't driven an R8 of course, but I have sat in a couple, and just the way they sit is awesome. As annoying as the phrase can be when people say a car fits like a glove, the R8 really does. It's surprisingly easy to get in and out of, even for me. But at the same time, you feel like you're sitting in an exotic. Best of all, it's useable! Nothing seems overly complicated or fussy. It gives the 911 a very good run for its money as being an everyday supercar.

Apex3, not to be a jerk, but I don't care much about an airbox. My Honda's air filter is without question the easiest air filter to change in world history. Next time I do it, I'm going to time myself. I can do it in 10 seconds. I know I can.

Does that mean I want to change an A/C compressor on it? Hell no.

I shake my head when these n00bs today say that changing spark plugs is easier on an Evo than a WRX is easier, so the Evo must be easier to work on. Changing spark plugs... "working on." Seriously?

All around, the old Legacy is about the easiest car to work on there is. The only things I find hard to do on these cars are motor mounts and (gulp) shifters. But the engine is absolute cake. The axles are easy, the suspension is easy, the transmission's surprisingly easy (although heavy), etc.

I know they say whatever you learned to work on is always easiest to you, but I have worked on other cars and just found them difficult to work on, and worst of all... unnecessarily difficult.

I love old VWs and Audis...and I much prefer my 4000S over my Legacy...They are far from building garbage...Subaru should have taken some chassis design lessons from Audi back in the day...my 85 quattro is heaps stiffer than my SS was, and it weighs 350 lbs less

People gripe about the electrical systems because they either:

a) don't have the 2 braincells it takes to figure them out

b) don't maintain them

What does it for me is the fact that many common jobs are much easier than most post 70s cars. At the same time, many not-so-common jobs are no harder than other cars.

I can change any of the engine driven accessories from under the hood. No crawling on the ground to change an alternator or PS pump.

I can change the timing belt, the water pump or all the front seals without removing the accessories or even draining a system (although it is faster/easier to pull the radiator).

Starter is up top. Clutch cable/cylinder is too. CV axles and front suspension are easier then many other FWD to do. Rear is no worse than any other RWD IRS vehicle.

The lone exception in my experiance is pulling the transmission. It's like doing a RWD car and a FWD car at the same time.

True story...I used to own a Mazda MX3 with the tiny 1.8 liter V6. When I needed a waterpump, I decided it was easier to pull the whole motor than to try and work in the 2" between the motor and the fender well. It was that tight in there.

When I look under the hood of a VWAG car within the last 15 years, I want to punch myself in the face. Also, a Passat has the same suspension design as a Cavalier? Really?




Having worked on several makes of cars, so far the Subie is the easiest, narrowly beating out the '66 Impala I had in high school, except for the fact I had to either cut a hole in the fender liner or take the fender off to change the heater blower motor on the '66. I could crawl around in that engine bay though.


Just replacing the lower intake manifold gaskets on a series 2 GM 3.1 is enough to drive people batty, unless you have done 30 of them like most general mechanics.


I look at it in a manufacturing sense though. Like the shift linkage on a subaru. Subaru really doesn't think it is coming out unless the tranny is being removed, in which case it is easy. No sense in trying to accommodate that with added cost. Just like other cars. For example, the exhaust on a Focus is installed before the rear subframe and suspension, because it saves a ton of money installing a one-piece part at one time than trying to work around the rear suspension and subframe. Need to take the exhaust off your Focus? Get out the Sawzall.

Or we could be talking about VW products MADE IN THE LAST 15 FRIGGIN' YEARS. Damn, I don't know what you're talking about Fords for—my flat head was the easiest car in the world to work on... Because nearly circuit-board sized wiring for the headlights and 2-year old connectors that crumble into dust in your hands (and that's just the beginning) must make the guy repairing it the idiot. Maybe you'd care to explain why nearly every VW older than 6 months has at least 1 light out? Why alternators routinely fail before 70k miles? Or maybe some of the major mechanical design defects that led to catastrophic engine failure, usually under 50k miles?

But then, I shouldn't expect anything else.

93forestpearl wrote:Just replacing the lower intake manifold gaskets on a series 2 GM 3.1 is enough to drive people batty, unless you have done 30 of them like most general mechanics.

Yeah, thats about as bad as it gets when working on domestics. Other than anything on a fwd v8 caddy.
Subies are the easiest to work on in my experience. Espesially being awd. And the fact that most parts are interchangable with little to no modifiacation not only makes sense for packaging and assembly, but also from a marketing standpoint. Plus its beneficial to us 'older' Subaru fans when upgrading.

555BCTurbo wrote:People gripe about the electrical systems because they either:

a) don't have the 2 braincells it takes to figure them out

I'd like to think I have more than 2 brain cells, and electrical stuff honestly frightens me.

Call me a Neanderthal either way, but I'd much rather take the entire suspension off my car than do electrical work.

555BCTurbo wrote:b) don't maintain them

Why does an electrical system need maintaining? My Legacy has seen the following for electrical 'maintenance':

1) Two batteries
2) Two alternators
3) Two starters
4) A few sensors, that weren't even bad, so I replaced them before they went bad

I wouldn't necessarily even call that maintenance, as any idiot can change those things and they're wear items anyway.

My Legacy has seen no other electrical work and has not given me electrical problem #1.

I don't think it's a VW thing anyway; I think it's a German thing. Mercedes is just as bad.

I heard all German cars are wired use the electron/positive ground theory... maybe that has something to do with it?

The year I owned a 95 VW Golf, I swear it was nothing but one problem after another. Yes, lots were electrical too. My buddy had a 96 Golf. It too had shitloads of electrical problems...

Here is my maintance log for the year I owned it. Lots of wasted $$$...

Date Milage Cost Info
8/30/2005 147800 $152.32 Fix O2 sensor wire in main harness
8/30/2005 $112.75 Car License. Tabs
8/31/2005 $15.20 CarToys - kenwood wireing harness
9/1/2005 $328.25 Flush cooling system. Replace serpentine belt. Replaced thermostat
9/2/2005 $4.12 Schuck's -antenna wire
9/7/2005 $136.00 New driver door lock cylnder. 2 keys from code
9/10/2005 $47.24 Oil, filter, repair manual, injector cleaner
9/13/2005 $645.02 Tierod ends / rack and pinion. 2 Toyo proxes 4. Wheel alignment.
9/26/2005 148300 $17.20 New teflon windshield wipers
10/14/2005 149000 $31.33 Air intake temp sensor
10/25/2005 149110 $15.00 coolant temp sender
10/27/2005 149140 $486.29 New starter
10/29/2005 149150 $158.27 rear brakes replaced
11/25/2005 149900 $29.89 new cap / rotor
11/25/2005 149900 $17.10 high/low oil pressure senders
11/29/2005 150200 $564.20 winter tires / rims
12/13/2005 151306 $191.86 O2 sensor, PVC valvue
12/13/2005 151306 $18.87 oil change
12/31/2005 151756 $51.49 spark plugs, fuel filter
1/20/2006 152540 $65.00 CEL, codes: 00533, 00586, 00513
3/21/2006 153472 $- Switch back to summer tires. (3,272 mi on winter tires)
3/25/2006 154035 164.83 oil pump, gasket, spark plug wires
3/25/2006 154035 $- Changed oil / filter.
3/30/2006 154230 $118.50 Driver door seal / striker plate
5/4/2006 155206 $241.80 2 Toyo Proxy 4's (front), tires rotated.
5/25/2006 156120 $- Front brakes checked, roughed up, rotated.
6/18/2006 157040 $5.60 Oil / filter changed
6/29/2006 157345 $24.81 New idler pulley
6/29/2006 157345 $74.87 Dealer: Safety recalls: hood lock assembly, rear brake line. Repace Vbelt
total = $3,717.81

All trac's are kinda cool. How did it turn out? Make some money flipping the thing or is it a keeper? They should run quite a while, ski car?

DerFahrer wrote:
Apex3, not to be a jerk, but I don't care much about an airbox. My Honda's air filter is without question the easiest air filter to change in world history. Next time I do it, I'm going to time myself. I can do it in 10 seconds. I know I can.

Does that mean I want to change an A/C compressor on it? Hell no.

I shake my head when these n00bs today say that changing spark plugs is easier on an Evo than a WRX is easier, so the Evo must be easier to work on. Changing spark plugs... "working on." Seriously?

All around, the old Legacy is about the easiest car to work on there is. The only things I find hard to do on these cars are motor mounts and (gulp) shifters. But the engine is absolute cake. The axles are easy, the suspension is easy, the transmission's surprisingly easy (although heavy), etc.

I know they say whatever you learned to work on is always easiest to you, but I have worked on other cars and just found them difficult to work on, and worst of all... unnecessarily difficult.

That was just an example. But everything on my e30 was so well thought out, and easy, it really seems like they went over it several times after they made it, and moved things around so you can get to everything without moving anything. Shifter was 15 minutes or so, motor mounts I didn't do, but they're supposed to be easy. Honestly I feel like I could have done anything one thing on that car within a day, except maybe a headgasket, and I'd put that in the maybe section. Actually I did do almost everything on it, usually in a couple hours

Not saying the Subaru is hard to work on, it's not, it's quite easy, just some of the things I've done made me wonder why they thought it was a good idea to set it up that way.

The two are quite close though. I think old cars in general tend to be easy to work on. I am glad about the suspension on this car though, pain in the ass on e30s.

If you wanna talk new cars, new Japanese cars are easier any day, specifically Subarus and Toyotas, I've heard Hondas too but I haven't seen the engine bay on a new Honda, aside from the s2k which is cake too.

Someone mentioned Jaguars, you wanna talk hard to maintain, old British cars are about as bad as you can get. Lucas electrics ftl...

DerFahrer wrote:
Why does an electrical system need maintaining?

Man made items degrade over time.

555BCTurbo wrote:
a) don't have the 2 braincells it takes to figure them out

I can understand what you are saying, but some people do get confused about things. Reading schematics burns my eyes. That's my reason for griping


Anyways, If you have the chance to work on many vehicles you learn easier ways to go about things. Like I would rather do an evaporator out of a 03 focus than my legacy just because it took 3 hours start to finish. The legacy, I don't know what happen. I guess it was me being more cautious about the plastic interior cracking. But yea, longitudinal engine vehicles are easier to work on for engine wise than transversal engines. Just my opinion.

Adam West wrote:All trac's are kinda cool. How did it turn out? Make some money flipping the thing or is it a keeper? They should run quite a while, ski car?

I used to think all-tracs were kinda cool, too. Then this.
It should last for quite a while, but with maintenance like this, I wouldn't have one.

Apex3 wrote:

magicmike wrote:

evolutionmovement wrote:Still beats the Nazis.

lol, yeah what do they say about bmw's, if the timing belt goes on it just be sure to drive it into a tree while you have enough momentum to total the car otherwise it will cost you more to repair the broken chain lol.

That's not unique to German cars, it's called an interference engine.

Thanks I had no idea that was the reason

awww come on that didn't look or sound to bad. I work for a Cadillac/Hummer dealership and pulling the sub frame to pull a motor is just part of life. Matter fact when i replace motors in the H2 and H3 we just pull the body off the frame. It makes life much more easy.

magicmike wrote:

Apex3 wrote:

magicmike wrote: lol, yeah what do they say about bmw's, if the timing belt goes on it just be sure to drive it into a tree while you have enough momentum to total the car otherwise it will cost you more to repair the broken chain lol.

That's not unique to German cars, it's called an interference engine.

Thanks I had no idea that was the reason

There's a lot of cars that have that, and there's a lot of German cars that don't my brother's 328is and 318is, and my dad's 528i have timing chains, my 325i had, and my dad's 635csi has a belt

GotSubie wrote:awww come on that didn't look or sound to bad. I work for a Cadillac/Hummer dealership and pulling the sub frame to pull a motor is just part of life. Matter fact when i replace motors in the H2 and H3 we just pull the body off the frame. It makes life much more easy.

Easy for you to say. When you're working on cars that're designed to assembled/disassembled by their major components in a fully equipped shop.