legacycentral bbs

So I just picked up a '99 Outback Limited Wagon (126,000 miles) with a manual transmission which was stuck in second gear. I bought the car about 60 miles away from home and drove it all the way back in second, that was a pokey journey. Anyway, the previous owner said that for a while it was difficult to get it into 2nd and 4th, and then one day it just wouldn't come out of second so she parked it. To cut to the chase, I've got the trans out and cracked open (never been inside one before) and I've found a couple of things I'd like a little input on from those of you who know a thing or two. What I found was that both the 1-2 fork and the 3-4 fork were broken. I also discovered that the nut on the back end of the main shaft was loose. My theory is that this nut loosened which led to difficult shifts, which led to the PO forcing the shifter until she broke the forks. Does this theory add up or should I be looking for another problem? My second question pertains to syncros. I have no frame of reference to tell me what the difference is between a little wear and totally shot. There's a picture below, how do they look? Any input, words of wisdom, whatever would be welcome. Thanks in advance!

I like your hypothesis on the loose nut, but the bearings on 4th + 5th gear are probably in rough shape because they were run loose... You check their free play, then spin them up on a lathe and see how much pressure run-out they have. It also looks like the stabilizer bearing between 4th-5th spun around in the case a bit. When that bearing fails you'll have very similar issues to those you describe, but usually the nut falls off long after the bearing has grenaded. Make sure the case is still to spec.

While you're in there, check the 1-2bearing on the pinion shaft as well, it can give you problems since you know there have been alignment issues - it's always spinning at engine RPM so it takes a beating when the two shafts are not meshing they way they should.

It's hard to tell the condition of synchros without looking at the cone surfaces, but I'd inspect the ring for cracks and the dogs for burs. Push them against the cones and try to spin the gear it's on, do they do their jobs (i.e., slow the gear down sufficiently)? They look pretty good from here, but it's hard to say.

After a second look, the dogs on third gear look pretty beat. Have some more pictures? I'll bet that synchro ring is shot, and from the direction of the wear, it looks like she was grinding it badly on the down-shift (or slamming it out without putting the clutch in).

Do you have the manual? At some point the FSMs for a '95 and '99 were posted on this forum, which had the tear-down and rebuild section for phase 2 transmissions.

I'm far from an expert on transmissions. But I was inside one recently and had some questions regarding torque specs and such.

During my questions Log1call was kind enough to post up this - http://cid-4ca3c3459aaa7f7f.skydrive.li ... px/.Public

Lots of good stuff there. Good luck with the project.

Thanks for the input guys, much appreciated. I do have a '99 FSM that I downloaded a while back, I never would have been brave enough to open the case up without the manual to go by. I haven't had a chance to monkey with the project any since my last post, but fishbone79 asked if I had any more pics so I thought I'd put a few more up. I see why you think that bearing may have been spinning in the case, I wouldn't have noticed that so thanks. Any more tips or observations from anyone would be quite welcome, I'll report back soon once I've had a chance to take a little more apart.

I can't really tell from the pics, but the third gear synchro looks pretty shot. I'll bet it'd be drivable, but if you want it to shift nicely, you should may want to replace that synchro and perhaps even the gear. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think the dogs on phase II.5 third gear are offset tapered, but I'd have to look it up.

The rest of the gears actually look really good, from here, an excellent candidate for a rebuild if the bearings are good, IMHO.

That bearing between 4th and 5th was definitely spinning in the case. It does not have preload, so if it binds at all, replace it. That suggests that the main shaft was getting pretty sloppy in 4th-5th gear when things were moving fast, so I would check all the bearings out.

If your gonna have it apart for bearing work, I say go ahead and replace the synchros while your in there. @ 126k it can't hurt and sure beats finding out they're needed the hard way.

Yeah, seems like disassembling the main shaft is inevitable if I'm going to make this thing right. This car is an investment project that I am going to sell when finished so I don't want to go farther than I really need to but I do want to do it right, I'm not the type to just put a quick fix on something and screw the next guy. Being that I'm a transmission virgin I'm guessing it would probably be wise to just take that main shaft to a pro and let them handle it, would you guys agree? If I do that, should I still be safe to reassemble the trans myself or will servicing the main shaft change tolerances that will need to be accounted for in the reassembly process? I'm a pretty damn competant mechanic (I do body work for a living) but my tools and experience are pretty basic when is comes to gear boxes.

You could easily do the mainshaft work yourself if you have a good press and an assortment of jigs to pull the gears. The tolerances on reassembly are not that crucial, most things just get pressed back on nice and snug. You will change tolerances a bit, but they will be within the error of the fore-aft gear mesh. Just make sure you preserve the orientation of the shift collars and the spacers.

Also, there's quite a bit of allowable adjustment in the pinion shaft's fore-aft position, which will be the most challenging part for a novice on reassembly. Since you wont change anything on the pinion shaft, you can probably get away with using the same number of spacers on the rear bearing, and minorly adjusting the pinion-ring gear contact pattern via the axle stub carrier bearings. You would need to do this on reassembly in any case.

IMHO, it's not worth having a shop do that shaft because they will probably not guarantee the work unless they reassemble the trans themselves.

Thanks for all the advice Morgan, you've been very helpful. I'll give it a whirl and see how it goes.

So what new parts will I need for the mainshaft portion of this job?

Here's the car by the way. Not too shabby for $600. Runs good, body's nice, interior is a little dirty but still in excellent condition.

IMO you'll want to replace 3rd gear (those dogs look pretty beat up). I'm not sure if the dogs and cone are part of the gear or separate in that year, but the manual should tell you. You'll want the synchro kit with all the little clips, probably want that bearing between 4th and 5th, and whatever other bearings look worn. I'd also replace that seal and the small carrier bearing at the front as well. Pull it all apart and check it out before you buy the parts.

Inspect the axle stub carrier bearings as well, those can be changed later, but it's a pain and they are important. The tail section rarely has many problems, but you should check those bearings for any gross issues. I don't think you can remove the viscous coupling on that year, but you can probably inspect it through the side of the center diff to see if it's purple...

I don't know phase II part numbers, sorry. Synchro design was revised.

For $600? damn, that's a good deal.

I'm happy they offered these in 5mt. There really aren't too many manual transmission wagons on the market. I just got one for 800, just like yours with the 5mt, not sure what it needs yet, but body looks a bit rougher. Nice find!

I bought the car from the original owner and she said the only reason that she bought the Limited model was because it was the only 5MT on the lot. It's a real shame that you couldn't get the dual sunroofs and the manual transmission together.

she bought the only 5-speed on the lot... maybe she wanted to learn how to drive a stick.... i'd agree with the other guys, replace the synchros for sure. the cones are likely worn as well, after all, she did break the shift forks! soccer mom was probably smoking honda si's off the line ...

normally, you can get away with a spun journal as a press fit is usually only required on the race that actually turns (the shaft to inner race in this case). from what i can see, it looks like it will okay...

nice buy for $600. if the parts add up, just go pull a 5 for $100 or so from your local self-serve LKQ....

nice garage btw! i don't even have a drain in the floor...