Brake upgrade recommendation 94 legacy wagon w/ 15" wheels

[LostChevyGuy]

Hi all. First let me say thanks for a great site. I'm new to subies and been lurking on the forums for a few weeks now. Lots of great info here.

I've read through the various brake FAQs but my head is kinda spinning. I recently picked up a 94 legacy wagon (non-turbo) and turning it into a reliable/cheap daily driver (emphasis on the cheap, since I'm recently unemployed).

It's a 2.2, 5 speed car and has the rear non-vented discs. It's currently sitting on 14" steelies. I picked up a cheap set of 15" alloys I think were from an early imprezza. Upon doing a ghetto brake job (pads) I found that the front right caliper bolt/slider was rusted and seized up. I managed to get it loose and clean it up but it's got play now so I'm looking to do a general brake upgrade (could use new rotors anyway & the rear calipers are more rust than metal). I'd like to stick with the 15" wheels as tires are cheaper, but if there really aren't any good options I'm not opposed to 16s, have seen some on CL locally.

I know the turbo legacy parts should all bolt on, but they are still fairly small rotors & seem kinda hard to find. I'm thinking H6 for rear setup and the 294/295 rotors & WRX calipers up front, but I saw the note that they only work with some 15" wheels. Anyone have any more info on this?

Have found lots of aftermarket rotors that are cheaper than OEMs (ebay), any good/bad experiences with them?

Also anyone have a good source for some inexpensive steel braided lines? I'm a Chevy performance guy so I'm used to the $75 complete sets from Earls. Not finding anything close to that though.

[LostChevyGuy]

Oh and it's a non-ABS car. Am I going to need to replace the master cyl/booster for the WRX/H6 combo? If so with what? All the ones I see are for ABS, does it make a difference?

[mike-tracy]

Hi, welcome to the site. Sticking with those impreza 15" wheels gives you the option of 96-99 2-piston calipers which have larger discs. For the rears you can swap in turbo legacy ventilated rotors which are a nice little upgrade.

If you were willing to get some 16" OEM wheels, you could fit WRX front brakes which have about an inch larger discs. Funnily enough, 02-05 WRX rear brakes are the same size as yours.

At the top of thus brake thread, there is a "sticky" post with a ton of good info. I recommend looking through there and checking out the postings by Jamal. Also check out the "brake math spreadsheet" which is an excel file by legacy777. It shows you what each combination will make to your brake balance.

[Legacy777]

I'll throw my 2 cents in. Cheap and brakes....don't always go hand in hand.

I'll start off with the master cylinder. Almost any upgrade you do will require more volume to the brake calipers. This translates into more pedal travel. Since you have a wagon the rear calipers already have a 1.5" diameter piston, which is the largest for the rear. The fronts however, are a single 2.525" diameter piston. Pretty much all of the two piston front calipers have two 1.685" diamter pistons. That gives you an area of 3.983 in^2 with the single piston caliper and an area of 4.460 in^2 with the two piston caliper. Given the same caliper piston movement that's about a 12% increase in volume requirements per caliper.

Anyway....I'm getting into the weeds here. The bottom line is that more volume is required and if you do not care for increasing the pedaal travel, you will need to upgrade the master cylinder to the 1-1/16" bore SVX non-abs MC. They are getting kind of hard to find. Finding them used is really probably the best option. But it is an option.

So with the MC discussion out of the way, I would suggest not doing anything to the rear calipers & rotors. Upgrading to the vented rear discs will give you no noticable braking improvement. Upgrading the H6 setup will give you a little larger rotor, but I "think" it may require 16" wheels. It may not though.....someone else can probably confirm.

For the fronts, you can upgrade to the turbo legacy or another 2-pot front caliper setup, which will give you slightly larger rotors.

If it were me and I were on a budget, I would replace or repair any of your existing calipers that aren't functioning properly. I would get all new rotors and have them cryogenically treated. Deep cryo-treating vastly improves the cast rotor's material properties and improves their longevity and durability. I would also replace the brake lines with SS braided lines. Goodridge or any lines meant for the 93-99 Impreza will work on your Legacy. WRX lines do work, but have a different mounting to the strut. Most folks just zip tie them to the strut, and it works fine. Lastly, I would suggest getting some more agressive brake pads. This will make the biggest different in the braking performance. I've been pretty happy with the EBC red stuff pads. They are not full on super agressive race pads, but still have good stopping power and aren't really noisey. I'd also flush all your old brake fluid out and use Valvoline Synpower brake fluid. it's relatively inexpensive and has very similar dry & wet boiling points as much more expensive fluids.

Anyway....those are my suggestions

Here's my brake math spreadsheet if you want to play around with different combinations.

http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=25054

[mike-tracy]

H6 rears do fit under 15" rears.

[LostChevyGuy]

Thanks for the replies. I guess I was thinking if I'm going to have to replace the calipers/rotors anyway then I want to get the best possible.

The extra volume MC does have me concerned though, my car has the "hill holder" which engages brakes when the clutch is depressed requiring a 3 port MC. Did any of the SVX's have that as well? I found one little blurb on NASIOC where a guy used one from a Celica with good success. Since the turbo legacy used a dual piston setup wouldn't it have the larger MC or are they tiny pistons? I know the rotors are significantly smaller than the WRX ones.

Honestly I'm wondering if a 12% difference in volume would make a significant difference in pedal travel. Course if I do go the H6 rear route (maybe later on) that will need more volume as well.

[James614]

Turbo legacy MCs are all ABS. Don't about the hill holder.

On a tight budget, I will echo getting good pads, good working rebuilt calipers, and fresh fluid. Braided lines are good if you can afford it. This will get you better brake performance and a firmer pedal than simply going to bigger brakes. Also keep in mind that unless you plan to run STICKY tires, actual braking distances won't really improve if you go bigger. You will get much more bang from your buck upgrading the stock components.

[Someperson]

i did the SVX MC in a previous wagon, I deleted the hill holder as they are prone to problems. fairly easy to do, but you will need to bend some line and get a joiner

[Legacy777]

Yeah....you'd have to do away with the hill holder. All the ABS equipped cars have a 2-port MC, while the non-abs had a 4-port MC, with the exception of those cars with a hill holder.

The 12% increase in pedal travel may not be much and I've found that brake pedal travel and feel is something that is very preferential to the driver. So what someone may not like, may feel fine to someone else. You could upgrade the calipers and see how it feels and then go from there.

I'll echo the comments about the tires. Larger brakes really just increase the heat capacity and brake torque. If your tires aren't upgraded, you'll just have a tendancy to lock them up easier, which isn't good. The best braking performance for your buck is to stick with your stock calipers and upgrade the pads.

[MrWeedster]

Hey Josh, you said a SVX MC from a non-ABS model is a good upgrade.
What about the ABS version? Are they the same as the legacy ones?

[PhyrraM]

Sorry to state the obvious, but better brakes won't really give much performance improvement if your keeping the 15" wheels and relatively stock sized tires.

What your really after is better brake feeling and control, which IMHO is more important that raw stopping power.

I agree with Josh's suggestions. Stock rear, bigger M/C, and your choice of "small" (non-WRX) 2 pot fronts. Pay attention to all the details on assembly and careful pad choice and you will be surprised.

[Legacy777]

Hey Josh, you said a SVX MC from a non-ABS model is a good upgrade.
What about the ABS version? Are they the same as the legacy ones?

The ABS version won't work because there are only two ports on the ABS models vs. four ports on the non-abs models. The non-abs models are getting tough to find. I suppose a cheap and good option if someone found a machine shop that would do this is to take the Legacy 1-1/16" bore ABS MC's and drill out the other two bosses in the MC, install the appropriate fittings so it's good to go.

[jamal]

Centric makes them though. 130.47019, about $150.

[Someperson]

Really now? I'll have to look into this. My last svx mc was 220...

[Legacy777]

That's good to know Jamal!

Thanks