legacycentral bbs

I just picked up a 98 Forester the other day for my wife.
It's got 129k miles on it. Seems to drive smooth enough and shift
pretty good. The oil pan leaks and one of the front cam seals appears
to be leaking, judging by the small amount of oil at the bottom of and
behind the timing covers.


1.) Does this look like a pretty good list of things to change out?
Anything I should add? What parts would you recommend getting
from Subaru vs aftermarket? I've ordered most of these through
RockAuto.


Pronto - Fuel filter
FRAM Tough Guard - Air filter
FRAM - PCV valve
Fel-Pro - Clean EGR / new gasket
Victor Reinz - Clean throttle body / new gasket
Airtex - Clean IAC / new gasket
Victor Reinz - Clean intake manifold / new gasket
Victor Reinz - Timing cover gaskets
Gates - Timing belt / timing pulleys / tensioner
Gates - Cam seals
Gates - Front main seal
Autozone - Rear main seal
GMB - Water pump / thermostat
Fel-Pro - Oil pan gasket / oil filter / oil
Wix - Transmission filter / gasket / fill
GATES - Upper / lower radiator hoses
Goodyear - AC/PS + Alt belts
Autozone - Spark plugs / wires
Autozone Ceramic Gold - Brake pads
Subaru OEM - Steering rack boots
Autozone - Ball joint

NGK - Spark plugs and wires
Front/rear diff fluid with Amsoil Severe Gear 75w-90
Coolant flush – refill w/ Subaru coolant / additive
Thermostat/gasket from Subaru
Front sway bar bushings - Raybestos
Rear (temporary) sway bar bushings - Raybestos
Rear Outback sway bar with new bushings (if it fits and I get the time)
Recall secondary transmission filter kit for the Legacy's (From Subaru)
New tires


Possibly Whiteline steering rack bushings in the future



2.) I think I'm gonna go with Gates instead of DNJ for
the timing kit. I plan to send it back tomorrow and
get this kit from Amazon instead. Seem pretty solid?

http://www.amazon.com/Gates-TCKWP277A-E ... 0033DMFI6/

3.) So when I'm in drive and off the pedal this thing seems
to slow down more quickly than any other car I've owned.
Neutral's not as bad, but it doesn't coast worth a crap in
drive. Is that an issue or just due to the larger tires / heavier
weight. My 90 Legacy is up on Forester struts and wheels and
it just seems to not have as much resistance as this thing does.

4.) Also, during turning there seems to be about a 1/2 second
delay in the steering. Would this be due to a different power
steering pump or rack setup than the Legacy's or would it be
the steering rack bushings being worn or something?


5.) Would it be smart to throw on a timing belt guide (the one
that goes above the crank from a manual) just as added protection
from the timing belt jumping? Interference engines make me
nervous.

6.) What would you recommend for cam seals? Autozone wants
$8 each. That seems too high to me since I need 4.

7.) And lastly: Is there a way I can tell which tensioner I have without having
to take the center timing cover off?

If it helps it's from 5/98 according to the metal plate in the door.

If it's the old style what will it take to upgrade to the new?
Is the new actually better?

Sorry for the crapload of questions by the way

I split your forester questions from the other thread and put in the Misc forum to hopefully get some additional feedback.

Don't use the oil pan gasket, there isn't one in stock form just rtv sealant. Also if the rear main isn't leaking leave it alone. And if you're going this deep into the motor go ahead and get some new Oem head gaskets. You've got the ej25d which does enjoy popping head gaskets.

86BRATMAN wrote: And if you're going this deep into the motor go ahead and get some new Oem head gaskets. You've got the ej25d which does enjoy popping head gaskets.

+100%

I know it's a big step but since you'll likely want to remove the engine anyway to do the rear main (only if leaking) and check the rear separator plate, doing the head gaskets is very recommended. The EJ25D needs head gaskets as a 'maintenance' item, not a 'repair', IMHO.

Make sure you use an OEM T-stat. And I recommend getting all seals OEM, but That's just me.

I'd also check the oil pressure sender - common leak point.

'98 shouldn't have an AT trans filter - '99+, IIRC. There isn't a filter in the trans pan - just a screen. DON'T FLUSH your trans, just do a drain/refill/repeat 3-4 times.

#2 Recommend the kit from Import Experts on Ebay.

#3 Not sure about that issue.

#4 Change the (AT) fluid, get the air out of the system?

#5 I wouldn't bother, but it won't hurt.

#6 See above...OEM.

#7 Dealer should know by VIN...but I 'think' all the '97+ had the newer style. You need the bracket it screws in to to use the older style. They are interchangeable on the 2.2 and 2.5, AFAIK. Old is better.

Edit: Do the oil pump. (Also makes it easier to replace the crank seal.) There are big Phillips screws on the opposite side of the pump. Check them and check the Beer Garage site on how to reseal it - it's a little technical to get the amount of sealant and to follow the correct path around it. I wouldn't take it all apart as shown on the Beer Garage site, but get the O-ring on the inside from the dealer.

wtdash wrote:

86BRATMAN wrote: And if you're going this deep into the motor go ahead and get some new Oem head gaskets. You've got the ej25d which does enjoy popping head gaskets.

+100%

I know it's a big step but since you'll likely want to remove the engine anyway to do the rear main (only if leaking) and check the rear separator plate, doing the head gaskets is very recommended. The EJ25D needs head gaskets as a 'maintenance' item, not a 'repair', IMHO.

Make sure you use an OEM T-stat. And I recommend getting all seals OEM, but That's just me.

I'd also check the oil pressure sender - common leak point.

'98 shouldn't have an AT trans filter - '99+, IIRC. There isn't a filter in the trans pan - just a screen. DON'T FLUSH your trans, just do a drain/refill/repeat 3-4 times.

#2 Recommend the kit from Import Experts on Ebay.

#3 Not sure about that issue.

#4 Change the (AT) fluid, get the air out of the system?

#5 I wouldn't bother, but it won't hurt.

#6 See above...OEM.

#7 Dealer should know by VIN...but I 'think' all the '97+ had the newer style. You need the bracket it screws in to to use the older style. They are interchangeable on the 2.2 and 2.5, AFAIK. Old is better.

Thanks guys

I was thinking about doing that too, actually...well, since yesterday.
I planned to get the OEM head gaskets. I do have a question though.
I was going to get them compression tested when I take them off to make
sure the valves are holding ok. Should I get it shaved and get new valves
while I'm at it? Will the new MLS head gaskets pretty much last a lot longer
than the old ones?

Yep, already ordered the OEM thermostat and gasket from Subaru.
Where is the oil pressure sender?

When you say flush, do you mean shop flush? Cause I planned to
change the screen in the pan to a WIX one, clean the magnet, reseat
the pan and drain and refill a few times.

2) Eh, I ended up getting the Gates the other night from Amazon Prime.
Probably should have waited lol

3) Gotcha. Wasnt sure if it was a common issue with these.

4) I probably should. It's not leaking, so there's that at least. Does it
have a bleeder or are you talking about leaving the cap off and turning
full lock and waiting, then the other side...repeat.

5) Gotcha. Well, it's a few bucks so I'll decide when the time comes, I suppose.

6) Thanks

7) I have the newer. I pulled it off last night to check. Seems to hold steady and
such. I would think the older is a bit better since it's technically pushing the pulley
sideways rather than trying to hold it down. Maybe I'll trade with my Legacy haha


Thanks again for all of the help, guys! The Forester guys don't seem to provide many answers.

-A good shop can tell you whether you need valves - unlikely. Just get the head resurfaced and either have the shop adjust them or plan on dealing w/it your self. They use 'shims' and are a PITA - read up. The latest iteration of the HG will last the life of the car.

-BTW, if you're pulling the oil pan, I'd look @ the bottom end for wear and tear (I'm not sure HOW to do this) and check the oil for 'sparkles' indicating metal in the oil. Common for the EJ25D to overheat, owner does the HG, and then the crank bearings wear out w/a rod thru the block, or a knock, knock, knock. It really depends on how many times and how long the engine was overheated.

-Oil sender is under the alternator...and note it's 2 pieces - the sender and the threaded portion it screws into, which screws into the block.
- Correct - shop 'pressure' flush - bad idea on higher mile cars - loosens junk which may cause seals to swell and leak...I've read that it's not true, but having seen/read/heard about it, I won't risk it. Just Drain/Refill/Drive (or @ least go thru all the gears)/Repeat. I wouldn't bother w/the screen replacement, - never heard of a Wix replacement as it's just a metal screen??? The newer models w/the external spin-on 'filter' shouldn't need replaced, from what I've read. But if replaced it should be w/the OEM version as the WIX one is just an oil filter and NOT designed for this purpose.

4- No bleeder just leave the cap and turn side to side...preferably w/the wheels in the air, from what I've read.

Subaruforester.org is a good site, but they don't respond much on old stuff - I've noticed that too when I had my '98 and '04...although most all questions are answered somewhere on the site.

TD

You won't be able to tell much about the bearings from looking at the bottom end, but you can get a halfway decent idea what kind of care the motor has had in the past. If the oil residue is dirty/dark there is a good chance it's had its oil changes stretched a little too far.

Look for any signs of melting or deformation of the inner timing covers, this would indicate a major overheat, or repeated overheating.

Chances are you'll be ok with the bottom end, Failed bearings are usually withing the first 500-1k miles after a head gasket job if they've been damaged from heat. So if it's running good now I wouldn't really lose any sleep over it.

Small gaskets are important, there is a little o-ring at the back of the oil pan that I've only found from the dealer that seals the pcv chamber to its tube. Oem only for the oil pump o-ring, and again only rtv is needed to seal the pump to the block. Subaru didn't put a gasket there even though the felpro front main kit has a gasket for it.

Mechanically you've got the same engine and trans as the 97/98 legacy outback, so you don't necessarily need forester specific information for those.

Also, I've seen a higher mileage trans than yours go through a shop flushing and be just fine. It's been about 10 years since I recommended my mom to get her 175k mile trans flushed, it did just fine for the next 40k we owned it and however many more the new owners have put on there in the 4/5 years since she sold it. But as everything your results may vary.

+1 (again)...I forgot the oil pump! Also, makes it easier to replace the crank seal. There are big Phillips screws on the opposite side of the pump. Check them and check the Beer Garage on how to reseal it - it's a little technical to get the amount of sealant and to follow the correct path around it. I wouldn't take it all apart as shown on the Beer Garage site, but get the O-ring as mentioned above.

TD

There's a lot of suggestions on this, witch is all good advice. Being someone that has put over 500k on a single 98 2.5 dohc I would change timing belt and idlers and reseal the oil pump and replace water pump, That a must with these 2.5s. Replace the cam seals and any other small leaks you see and just use RTV on the pan no gasket.

I know there's lots documented cases with head gasket failures I'm not sure i would bother with them. In 500k I never had one fail (I probably was lucky).

Do the normal tune up stuff NGK plug and wires and clean IAC and PVC.

Drain and refill trans, from what I've seen these transmissions last 250k-300k

Foresters also have a slower rack than our legacy's you might be feeling that, yes drain and refill with fresh ATF

Dang. A lot of good advice. Thanks a lot, guys. This really helps
I hadn't planned on resealing the oil pump unless it was leaking since
mine has never leaked on either of my Legacy's, but an o-ring is really
cheap so no problem with that.

I'll be pulling the oil pan. Planned to run some of that motor flush through
the engine before I pull it and do the fresh oil change so if there's crap
removed I'll see it in there as I drain and whatever residue is left should
be in the pan and filter. I'll check for any dark or burnt up oil on the bottom
end while it's off.

Mine, unfortunately, does not have the OEM spin on filter on the trans case
so that's why I figured putting some aftermarket inline hydraulic filter on
there would be good. There's some that can filter out as low as like 15
microns.

I'll follow that for the bleeding in of the power steering lines then. Thanks

"Small gaskets are important, there is a little o-ring at the back of the oil pan that I've only found from the dealer that seals the pcv chamber to its tube. Oem only for the oil pump o-ring, and again only rtv is needed to seal the pump to the block. Subaru didn't put a gasket there even though the felpro front main kit has a gasket for it. " - Do you happen to have the part # for that o-ring (Possibly 806919050)? And would you use RTV black for this since it's "oil resistant" or this Permatex anerobic stuff that the guy on beer garage uses? I guess it would drain out on the next oil change if it got inside or something.

Or parts I have the Haynes manual for the 90-99 Legacy and it does mention the 2.5 so if it's
the same at least I already have a manual for it.

So just RTV on the oil pan? So the red stuff that I saw on the oil pan
with no gasket was factory? This is good news, actually, as I've never
gotten a freakin oil pan to actually seal in the back. Always leaks from
back there...among other places.

Oil pump o-ring is 806919050 or 10991aa001 I've gotten both and they look almost identical so one or the is most likely number update, the o-ring for the back of the oil pan is 1112aa340, another worthwhile small thing to replace is the coolant crossover pipe which is 806933010 x2.

ive always used gray permatex or the equivalent, last motor I put together I used some Motorcraft dark gray rtv simply because working at a Ford dealer I could get it cheaper than advance auto stuff lol.

SWRT wrote:
Mine, unfortunately, does not have the OEM spin on filter on the trans case
so that's why I figured putting some aftermarket inline hydraulic filter on
there would be good. There's some that can filter out as low as like 15
microns.

Check out Josh's site for the tranny filter HERE (Scroll down). The actual KIT is cheaper than just the filter, last I checked, and It comes w/the hoses/clamps.

Td

Thanks. I'll be getting that o-ring.

The crossover pipe on the top of the engine? Do those have leaking
issues often?

Yeah, I called up to Subaru the other day about that filter kit. I had
gotten it for my Legacy at $25 a few year ago. They told me they
no longer sell that kit and that they'd have to sell all of the parts
individually and it'd be $270. I respectfully declined that order.

How can you tell the difference between single and double row idlers?
My kit just came in today, but it has black Koyo idlers vs NSK like I'm used to.


And thanks again for all of the help and quick answers, guys!

______________

My Subaru parts dealer found the AT kit PT350303 ATF FILTER KIT for SUBARU |31099AA091 @ these locations:



Tacoma Subaru 31099AA091 1 3838 S. Tacoma Way Tacoma WA 98409 253-473-6303
Wentworth Subaru 31099AA091 8 130 Se 7th Ave. Portland OR 97214 503-232-2000
Kirby Subaru of Ventura 31099AA091 1 6404 Auto Center Dr Ventura CA 93003 805-643-9259
Flatirons Subaru 31099AA091 1 5995 Arapahoe Avenue Boulder CO 80303 303-443-2919
Suburban Subaru 31099AA091 1 320 Maccorkle Avenue W. Saint Albans WV 25177 888-848-2576

And this guy has some of the best Subaru parts prices (no website - must call) that I've found:
Jason Douglas
Dealer# 140714
Mike Scarff Subaru of Auburn
3025 Auburn way north
Auburn, WA 98002
1-866-456-3025
253-737-1345

SWEET! I wonder if they'll ship lol I'll have to give them a call tomorrow.

I called a few guys on those lists and one happened to have
one and is supposedly shipping it out to me. Thanks a lot, man


Does anyone know how to tell the difference between the single and
double row idlers? I got a timing kit from Amazon and it had Koyo
idlers, but I though Subaru generally used NSK. Perhaps they changed?

Quality single and double row idlers will last more than the replacement interval of your timing belt. If you are worried about them, buy from the dealer, as those are double row idlers. Some aftermarket parts ones are also double row (I would imagine they would be priced and labeled as such?).

No clue. I just bought the kit off of Amazon.
It was from Gates

What I meant to say is I'd imagine the packaging or auction listing would say "dual roller bearings" if they were so.

I think I figured it out. The bearing seal is recessed into the
roller on single row. I think front and back side. Either way,
the double row bearings come out to the end of the roller on
both sides. Probably.