Budget Big Brakes.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:17 pm

What's the interest in a good budget brake upgrade?

It would consist of high quality rotors, and a bracket to bump your stock Legacy Turbo (and probably N/A) calipers up to WRX size, and bump the stock Legacy Turbo rear calipers to 05+ LGT rear rotor size.

You wouldn't even have to bleed your brakes.

I think the whole shebang, rotors and brackets, front and rear would run under $600 without a problem. MUCH less than buying WRX takeoff fronts and upgrading rotors, and WAY less than upgrading to an OEM LGT rear setup.

It would be no less reliable and, ultimately no different than OEM components. The brackets would be cast iron, just like stock, and they would produce no loads that OEM components don't. It would be a totally safe, totally OEM level upgrade.

The only downside, it wouldn't clear 15" wheels. It would clear OEM WRX wheels, which really are a dime a dozen. It should actually clear any OEM 16" non-steel wheel.

The front and rear kits would be available seperately.

jnorion · Post by **jnorion** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:55 pm

Assuming it would work for N/A, it sounds interesting to me.

AWD_addict · Post by **AWD_addict** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:26 pm

I'm not made of money, so this sounds good.

Who will be making the parts?

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 1:19 am

I'm working on that. It's kind of a side project. Rest assured, they'll be at LEAST OE quality, if not better. The rotors will be, IMO, some of the top rotors in the world.

I might actually be able to get a slightly better front kit. Larger than WRX fronts that will still clear WRX wheels. I haven't hammered out the details yet.

I just want to get a feel for them.

As far as I know, the early calipers are all the same bolt pattern, so the kit would work for the N/A's as well.

The rear kit is for a Legacy Turbo caliper, which is surprisingly innexpensive at a NAPA or somesuch with a core (from an N/A would probable suffice).

For a N/A guy, including the rears, the upgrade would still be under $700.

IronMonkeyL255 · Post by **IronMonkeyL255** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:23 am

I'd be interested, though I already upgraded to WRX fronts......

jamal · Post by **jamal** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:15 am

I really don't see the point. You're talking about having brackets made by racing brake, right?

-For the n/a folk it wouldn't work well because we'd still have one-pot fronts and smaller rear pistons.

-There are not many t-legs

-WRX stuff is not very expensive. Buying it means you also get a set of calipers and brackets that are newer, have good seals, and more pad options.

Recently I bought some RS calipers and brackets for $35. Here's my price breakdown for what I just did to my car:

WRX front calipers and brackets: $100
WRX rear calipers and SS lines: $60
Axxis Ultimate pads: $80
New H6 brackets and rotors: $250
Barely used and turned WRX front rotors: $60
Total: $550

Shop around and you can spend less. Point being the stuff is out there and isn't very expensive. It's like re-inventing the wheel, so to speak.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:12 pm

Jamal,

The N/A's have single piston front calipers? I had no idea. The rear kit is for Legacy Turbo rear calipers. It's essentially an 05LGT rear setup, without the $680 buy-in cost.

From an N/A setup, it would be under $500 for an LGT rear setup, and there are LOTS of pad options for the Legacy Turbo rears.

For the front, I'm working on a first-generation caliper bracket that will use 310mm front rotors. The kit would be in the range of $300 for rotors and brackets.

You spent $550 for stock parts. Or you could spend around (for your situation, since you'd need leg-T rear calipers) $650 for MUCH better rotors, and vented rears. Imagine the cost of replacing your current rotors with better than stock bits. Your budget cost would go up significantly.

The stuff is out there, but there are better ways than OEM to get there.

Since the fronts and rears would be available seperately, it's a non issue about just needing the rears!

93forestpearl · Post by **93forestpearl** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:48 pm

I need to do something about my rears. This might be the ticket.

What is the pad interchange on the rears? I didn't realise NA and turbo cars took a different pad.

IronMonkeyL255 · Post by **IronMonkeyL255** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:36 pm

Does anyone make an upgrade for WRX fronts to use a larger rotor?

skid542 · Post by **skid542** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:10 pm

I put my vote in for a rear kit. Namely because I currently have a t-leg setup but would like to have my front and rears matching when I upgrade my fronts to WRX (from t-leg) and I want to have vented rears. Albeit, I am also looking at the two-pot rears.... but money is an issue.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:50 am

Ironmonkey, I'm working on that too. I'm looking to do a 310mm front rotor using an early caliper, and I will be helping work on a new caliper 310mm kit that I'll be using on my car. I expect it to be a pretty kick butt kit, and it'll still fit under 16" wheels!

Lee, would you be interested in upgrading your T-leg front's to a 310mm rotor using the t-leg caliper?

IronMonkeyL255 · Post by **IronMonkeyL255** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:21 am

That sounds awesome. So that would mean Legacy GT sized rotors front and rear, right?

I have an early '02 WRX front setup and '01 RS alloys, so that would work out just about perfectly.

skid542 · Post by **skid542** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:11 am

Phil, yes I would be interested. I'm currently running tubo-leg fronts and would be looking to upgrade the fronts at the same time as I do the rears. However, fitting under 16's are a must.

Brakes are a component I want right. So yes, I am interested, keep us posted

.

jamal · Post by **jamal** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:26 am

Legacy GT stuff won't fit under 16s actually. The LGT rotors are also 30mm wide vs the 22mm and 24mm n/a and turbo rotors. There might be some issues with getting the calipers and pads to fit over them.

And unless they're two piece or directionally vaned, rotor are rotors.

I'm not trying to trash on your idea, just bringing up some counterpoints I guess.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:03 pm

The 310mm rotors are 24mm wide. The LGT rotors are 316x30. Making sure the 310 kit fits under 16's is a very important thing. The rear 290mm kit will be no problem, and the rear is my top priority.

Another good call Jamal, I didn't know the N/A rotors were only 22mm wide.

I REALLY disagree with the "rotors are rotors" comment. I've used a lot of rotors, and some have DEFINATELY been better than others.

The front kit is proving to be significantly more difficult than the rear setup.

It looks like the bracket for the front would only be for a phase 1 caliper that has a 24mm width. I guess that's all 2-piston front calipers though, right?

jamal · Post by **jamal** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:03 pm

Yeah, I think turbo and 96-97 2.5GT and Outback calipers. Maybe. What pad do you plan on using? Stock shape? Going to a new style would open up a lot of options.

I thought you were just going to use existing stock rotors. Having a new rotor size made will be a lot more expensive than you're thinking.

WRXbrakes on nasioc just had this done with Kartboy and DBA for a Brembo-sized rear rotor with a 170mm parking brake hat. Might want to ask them about their costs and the quantities they ordered.

A rotor is just a piece of iron. 2-piece or fancy vanes will keep things a bit cooler on the track, but as long as they're straight you won't be able to tell the difference from a $20 autozone part and a $200 DBA rotor in day to day driving.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:30 pm

I'll be using a 290x18mm rotor from an 05LGT. From what I've looked at, it should be a perfect setup.

I heard about the brembo setup. Their goal was a brembo rear adapter with a 1 piece rotor that had an R160 parking brake hat. I know someone running the kit, and it is exactly what the market needed.

You can definately tell quality rotors on the highway. Braking hard from 100mph tells a lot about a brake setup. In normal street driving though, your right, a rotor is a rotor.

I never thought about pad selection. Maybe I should use the pad guides from a WRX. That would be really cool, but less of a bolt-on for us. The Legacy Turbo has a good pad selection already, but I'll look into it.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:31 pm

Note: The above post is for rear brakes. I'm mostly talking about rear brakes in this post.

jamal · Post by **jamal** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:35 am

I like the rear brake idea a lot more. However, it will only really be beneficial to turbo legacy owners who want to upgrade the rear brakes. Everyone else will need new rotors, brackets, and calipers, and might as well just buy LGT take-offs. I can't see the price being much different. Racing brake's existing h6-upgrades are more than the oem stuff from subiegal.

Okay back to the rotor thing, it is a disc of iron. As long as it's straight, even braking hard from 100 there will be no difference between a cheapo rotor and some super expensive two piece slotted/drilled deal. You have tons of other variables, like the tires, bearing condition, alignment, calipers, and the rest of the braking system that have much more of an effect on feel.

With my last set of brakes I was on slotted rotors and Hawk HPS pads but my calipers were in kind of crappy shape. The slide pin boots were cracked and the seals weren't in good shape, and I could feel it. The car stopped okay and the pads didn't fade with some pretty aggressive mountain driving, but when I hit the brakes hard at high speed things would get a bit twitchy.

Now I not only have good pads, but fresh fluid, SS lines, the slide pins are greased, and all the boots and seals on my brakes are in good shape. Does my car stop in a shorter distance? No- the tires and bias are the same. Does my car FEEL a hell of a lot better braking from high speed? Yes, but not because I have bigger or better rotors.

Bigger rotors increase the heat capacity. Rotors with directional vanes keep the rotor cooler. 2-piece rotors keep the hub cooler and give more even pad and rotor wear on a track. They have nothing to do with feel or braking distance.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:47 am

The bracket/rotor package would cost about the same as the H6 kit.

Pick up some reman Legacy Turbo calipers from NAPA for under $150 for both, and you've got LGT rears, for less than takeoffs (and you've got better pads and rotors to boot), and WAY less than new. New is around $700 for OEM parts.

Internal vane design makes a big difference in rotor temperature. An ebay front rotor compared to a Stoptech, RB, or DBA rotor, and you'll notice how much cooler the latter rotors run.

For a solid rotor, it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.

skid542 · Post by **skid542** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:16 am

These rotors you're talking about being in the package Phil, directional vanes?

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:19 am

Would these return the front/rear brake balance lost with just WRX fronts with OEM L wagon rears? The fronts lock up too easily with this set up.

jamal · Post by **jamal** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:04 am

evolutionmovement wrote:Would these return the front/rear brake balance lost with just WRX fronts with OEM L wagon rears? The fronts lock up too easily with this set up.

They would produce the same bias change as going to LGT or H6 rears. For a wagon the bias will be slightly forward of what it would be with the same setup on a sedan or turbo, but you also have a prop valve that I think mostly makes up for it.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:46 pm

Lee, yes, they would be.

skid542 · Post by **skid542** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:06 pm

^^^

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