Opinions about what to do about damaged cam sprocket wanted.

[THAWA]

Well you have to remove the intake and exhaust manifolds to get the head off, and the cam sensor and pcv stuff.

I'd personally keep the cover on and just remove the three bolts that hold the cover on to periodically check it.

I would be wearing of using that if you say the frame hit the cam.

[vrg3]

Oh, right, I keep forgetting about the manifolds.

It's hard to see what hit it... Whatever it was must have hit it and then flexed back, because there wasn't anything very close to the timing belt cover after the collision. I think it might have been the radiator rather than the frame.

http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~v/pics ... unkie5.jpg
http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~v/pics ... unkie6.jpg

[Legacy777]

Just swap the sprocket. It's easy. If you can do a t-belt job, you can swap the sprocket.

MUCH less work then swapping a head.

[legacy92ej22t]

Vikash- I think it was the frame. Remember when we were doiing the part out and I pointed out how it looked like the frame hit the timing belt cover? I think it hit it at the point of impact then settled back. The frame (like under the battery) was at the exact angle and position to hit that spot on the front of the engine.

Josh- Ya, I'm not really considering the head swap. I'd only do that as a last resort if there was damage internally. I think Vikash is only suggesting it because the fact that there could be damage internally because it looks like it got smacked pretty hard.

I really didn't want to have to touch the timing belt either, I've done it before so I know what it entails but I don't find it fun. I'm actually agrovated by them, not sure why, I just dislike doing it.

[vrg3]

Oh yeah, I do remember that now.

I was just suggesting the head swap primarily because I forgot that it would be significantly more work than just changing the sprocket.

[evolutionmovement]

Why is the head swap so bad if you leave the valve train intact? Other than battling with the head bolts with the engine on the ground, that is. If you don't, checking the cam bearings is easy if you want to bother - pop the valve cover, remove the six bolts or whatever that hold the rockers on and slip the cam out. Maybe a half-hour job.

Steve

[legacy92ej22t]

Hmm, really? Maybe I should check that.

I don't want to swap heads. That defeats the entire purpose of why I bought this other engine in the first place. If I'm going to tear the heads off the I might as well just fix my original engine. Besides that, even if I did swap them over and then rebuilt my blown shortblock I'd then have to swap them back over again. Not gonna happen. The whole point was to "drop in" this engine so I could rebuild my original and then swap 'em back. I don't want a mix match between the two at all. I was already bummed about how much of my hoses and stuff I was going to have to swap over, all this new stuff is just pushin' my buttons.

Update on the progress:

Pulled both wiring harnesses off the engines. That was actually kind of a pain in the ass. You have to unbolt the fuel rails to get the connectors fished through. It probably would have been a lot easier if I had help but everyone I know seems to always be busy (which I can understand) so I'm pretty much on my own at all times. This kind of crap is always a lot more fun and easier with a friend but oh well. I guess if I had three hands it would have gone much smoother too.

Pulled the old up-pipe off the BJ engine. Took me about an hour I shit you not. I had to break the bolts to get it off because it and the manifold were so rusty. I had hosed the bolts with PB for the better part of a week too and I still had to resort to that.

The up-pipe had a lot of fresh oil in it. I'm not sure what that's all about but I would suspect that the turbo on the BJ engine was leaking. That or there's something wrong internally with the engine.

Pulled the outer ring off the cam sprocket and tried to fix it (hammer it flat) which worked somewhat ok but now the ring wont go back on. *sigh* So I wanted to make sure that the belt would stay on with out the ring and started turning the engine over. As I started turning the engine the belt started working its way to the outside of the sprocket and started rubbing the timing belt cover. I could also hear it rubbing something behind the main cover but I can't really tell what it is. It doesn't come all the way off but it hangs about a mm over the edge. The main cover might be keeping it from going further to the outside but until I get it off I have no way of knowing.

Getting the crank pulley off when the engine is sitting out of the car should prove to be interesting too. Not real sure how to go about that. I can try a strap or chain wrench and breaker bar combo but I have my doubts about even being able to get it to break.

I wanted to see what the other cam sprockets belt alignment looked like so I went to pop that cover off and snap! The very first bolt, the nut part just snapped out of the plastic and broke the cover! I didn't even torque on it, it just snapped. The next one came out ok but the last one underneath was already missing and broken out. So it looks like the whole timing belt cover will need to be replaced now too.

The belt isn't quite as far to the outside on the other cam so I'm a little worried as to why they'd be different unless something's off. The difference is slight but it is different. The one with the ring still on it, is just barely not touching the ring. On the one that got hit it's out past where the ring would be just slightly. The cam where the impact was also seems slightly askew but it's really hard to tell.

The back of the bad cam sprocket looks ok as far as I can tell V. It's really hard to tell though. It looks like there might be a very slight wobble to it but again, I'm not sure. If it is then it's really slight.

I forgot my camera today so no pics yet.

I did take off the cover on my original engine just to see and the belt sits well back away from the ring on it which is more normal I'd think.

Oh one of my injectors broke too. The little lip that the connector snaps on broke off so now there's nothing to hold the connector on. Isn't that peachy?

It just keeps getting better and better, huh?

[evolutionmovement]

Couldn't you just swap the whole intake assembly with harness and injectors intact? I did that when I swapped the turbo block in.

The walking belt doesn't sound good. The thing should be pretty damn stationary. If anything's bent, it's likely just the pulley, though the bearings may've taken a beating, but they'll probably be OK for a little while even if they did.

An impact wrench will pop that pulley right off. Dammit, if this was closer to Speed & Feed, I'd be there with mine. What a blessing that thing is with that kind of shit. Not much help with the exhaust manifolds, though, and mine weren't even rusty - they suck! I'm definitely reassembling it with SS hardware.

As for the t-belt covers, mine did the same damn thing. I think the plastic gets brittle with the heat and the bolts either get corroded or crap collects behind them and holds them in fairly tight. The combination takes those damn inserts out. Maybe the well the insert sits in can be cleared out a little and a thin regular nut substituted? I don't have a cover handy (they're all the way in the kitchen). Not sure about access behind the cover to hold the nut while you tighten the bolt.

Steve

[vrg3]

I'm sorry things are going so rough.

The fact that the rear lip isn't deformed seems like a good thing, since it means the damage might be just limited to the lip.

So the lip that's chewed up comes off the pulley? Does that mean you could just get a good lip off another crank sprocket and put it on? It does seem like the lip is needed to keep the belt on after all.

Two of my car's injectors have that tab broken off too. They were like that when I got the car. I haven't had a problem with it the whole time I've owned the car, but it is kind of unnerving.

My car's timing belt covers are both held together with black RTV silicone too... They were also like that when I got the car.

The fresh oil in the uppipe is probably from when I squirted oil into the spark plug holes. I hope it's not the turbo... I was hoping to use that turbo.

[legacy92ej22t]

Steve- I guess I could have swapped the intake manifold and everything, maybe I should have in retrospect, but I didn't want to replace the intake manifold gasket and I didn't know it was going to be such a bitch.

The walking belt has me worried too.

The way that the timing belt cover broke will make it impossible to bolt back together because the "hole" broke out. So there's nothing to run it through. Maybe I'll silicone it like Vikash's.

Vikash- It might mean that I could just put a good ring on as long as I can do it without damaging it.

I'm not really sure that the ring is there to keep the belt on. I don't know why the belt is walking towards the front either. I don't think it should that. When I took the cover off my other motor I went ahead and cranked it over too and it stayed well back from the front and didn't move at all from side to side. It may just be that the bent ring was putting pressure on the belt and has caused it to go crooked or something and when I pulled the ring it just tried to go back and is out of wack. Again, I don't know without pulling the crank pulley off and getting inside. At the very least I would think that I'll need to reinstall the timing belt to get it on right.

Ya, I was bummed about the injector but if you've been running yours like that for all these years then I guess maybe I'll be ok. Heh, hopefully I'll be getting bigger injectors sometime down the road anyways.

I think you're right about the oil in the up-pipe. This oil was very fresh and wasn't discolored at all. That's one reason it was throwing me off. It didn't look like oil that'd been ran through an engine. I'm sure your 16G is ok.

[vrg3]

Yeah, the ring is probably not supposed to keep the belt on, but just to help make sure that it stays on.

How is the ring attached to the sprocket?

Maybe there is a very slight fore-aft pull on the belt and the lip is meant to stabilize that.

Maybe you could try putting an undamaged ring on and then cranking the engine for a bit to see if it'll stay.

You should try to figure out a way to cover the timing belt in such a way that you can remove the cover to periodically inspect the belt.

The minimal timing belt reinstallation job is undoing the crank pulley, unbolting the tensioner, realigning the belt, compressing the tensioner in a vise and locking it with an allen wrench, and reinstalling the tensioner -- right?

If you want a little extra insurance against the injector clips coming loose you could put a dab of silicone sealant right where the clip ends. Like I said, though, I haven't had a problem yet.

Actually, for the time period that Shiva's car ran with the turbocharged 6MGE, four out of his six injectors were also missing the locking tabs on their connectors. That was how he got them too.

Oh, if the oil was new then it was certainly the oil I poured into the cylinders. Fresh 10W30 Mobil 1.

[evolutionmovement]

Those injectors should be fine. You'd be lucky to get them out still while trying. I know mine are damn well in there. That belt really shouldn't move - I always see them dead center as if that lip should be unnecessary security.

Check the cam bearings and give me your address, I'll send you a cam sprocket. I'll never do anything with that damn engine probably anyway, and if I do it may be something more along the lines of the dream I had last night of adding rotary valves and powering it by steam. My dream didn't mention how I'd resolve the steam in the crank case issue or how the bearings would like 1000+ lbs/ft at 0 rpm, or where the hell I'd get the money, but whatever.

Steve

[THAWA]

You should try to figure out a way to cover the timing belt in such a way that you can remove the cover to periodically inspect the belt.

what's wrong with just unbolting the three bolts that hold the cover on there stock?

[legacy92ej22t]

Because the back up nuts all broke out of the cover so there's actually only one. We were talking about siliconing it closed or something....

[THAWA]

Why not just use the one then? The timing cover being a little loose or vibrating should be the least of your worries at this point.

[legacy92ej22t]

Oh crap. My wife just called me at work and she got a job offer, which is good, but now I have to get my car on the road immediatly, which is bad. She will be working about 35 miles away and I'll need to be able to pickup my daughter up from school and stuff. This is stress I don't need right now.

Steve- I'll pm you my address today and thank you very much for offering the cam sprocket!

I forgot to mention yesterday about something else that I noticed about the BJ engine. The flywheel has a lot of cracks in it. Is that normal? They look pretty gnarly and deep. The only flywheels I've seen were always smooth and had no cracks. It may be another thing I'll have to swap over. Anyone?

Hardy-Hahaha, that's true I guess. Hell, why don't I just leave 'em off then huh? The one bolt is the one at the end and I'm not even sure it would really hold it on.

[professor]

As I posted earlier about that style of cam sprocket, don't fook with trying to re-fit the ring, or getting another ring and hammering it in place.

The edge retainer rings are pressed on after the gear is machined, because it makes it a lot easier to machine the gear. Some such gears are actually extrusions, so the edge ring has to be pressed on as a secondary operation

Replace it. Trust me I have at least 50 of this type of gear in my shop and they DO NOT work properly after damage, and the ring will fall off.

[vrg3]

That's great about the job offer! Too bad you now need to be able to locomote so urgently.

When clutches are replaced, flywheels are usually resurfaced to remove the cracks, right? Are these deeper than could be machined out? I guess you're probably best off just swapping your original engine's flywheel over with the clutch anyway, since they're bedded into each other.

[corsair]

Matt, good to hear about the job, I'd would like to offer you a vehicle but I can't. However I have the next couple of Saturdays open if you'd like another hand present to turn a wrench. I'm not inept I just don't know much more about these cars except how to change the oil. Anyway good luck and congrats to your wife, where will she be working anyway?

[legacy92ej22t]

Professor- I am going to replace it....

Vikash- I don't know if they'll machine out or not. They look pretty gnarly but they may be normal sized, especially for the miles that are on it.

I'm sure I'll swap it all over. *sigh*

Sam- Thanks for the offer, I uaually work Saturdays though.

She got a job down your way in Lewisburg. I can't remember the name of the business but it's in advertising.