[Pics Inside] VF11 vs TD05-16G

[NICO]

this tdo4l is it better then my factory turbo. is a vf11 come factory on our cars.

[J-MoNeY]

Will a "big" 16G fit?

[NICO]

if everyone is changeing there turbos to bigger ones how is everyone getting more gas in there motors. its not like i want to waste more then i do, but its like i have a v12 under my hood and it guzzles to much. but how u guys giveing more gas.

[boostjunkie]

As far as iinjectors go, only Kelly has been successful in installing bigger injectors on his car, as far as I know. There aren't any drop in replacements, however, I believe Ciper and vrg3 had some stock n/a legacy injectors they were going to get flow tested.

With the 16g and supporting mods (minus injectors), I'm maxxing out the stockers at 12psi by redline.

[boostjunkie]

Some more info on the 16g, if you're interested. Taken from here:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... 68472.html

SPeeDSiN
Is there any reason the bolt pattern on the subaru liberty turbo would not be similar to the current generation WRX?

I am assuming the liberty has the TD05-16g like the 94-97 wrxs, and that the only modification necessary would be to remove the 90 degree elbow on the compressor side.

The reason I am asking is I have FINALLY found a source for the 16g I have been longing. However, it isn't from the WRX but from the liberty.

Could someone chime in and tell me what I should expect or assume?

Thanks
Aaron
annointed
What is the hp rating of the Liberty engine you sourced? If its 220 hp, its not a TD05 turbo, but rather, a tiny TD04. Over a year ago, I purchased what was supposed to be a '95 WRX sedan front clip (TD05-16g), but ended up recieving a '94 WRX wagon front clip (tiny TD04). The wagon motor is rated at 218 hp with TD04. The TD05 bumps up the power rating to 258 hp. AFAIK, Liberty's are rated at 220 hp or less, and so I believe they are equipped with the smaller TD04 turbo.

The good news is that the TD05 bolted up in place of my stock TD04. And I got the TD05-16g from Possum Bourne, and had it ported by a US turbo specialist for a grand total of $450. Soon, I'll have the small 16g swapped out for a big 16g, but considering that the small 16g maxes out my stock 380 cc injectors @ 16 psi, (99% duty cycle), I need bigger injectors first!

Mark

The WRX's that came with the TD05-16g turbo were '93-96 sedans. These WRX's also had a higher compression ratio (8.5 to 1), and thus are generally not reliable past 16.5 psi, although off-boost response is better due to higher CR.
SPeeDSiN
I am not to sure of the HP rating. All I know is that there are serveral of the turbos available in good condition.

I asked the source if they had any TD05s and they wrote back that they had turbos from the liberty engine. I wonder if they are trying to pull a fast one?

I will see what else I can find out.

I am also going for the big 16g wheel. I have already got the injectors (subydude had them for 399 shipped), and I am sure as hell not paying for an IHI turbo.

Did you have to have part of the compressor side cut off (the right angle piece)? Or is it because you did any engine swap that you didn't have to?

I also have a BPM downpipe, and am trying to figure out if I need to lengthen or shorten the wastegate splitter inside of it to accomade the td05s.

Thanks
annointed
quote:
Originally posted by SPeeDSiN
I am not to sure of the HP rating. All I know is that there are serveral of the turbos available in good condition.

I asked the source if they had any TD05s and they wrote back that they had turbos from the liberty engine. I wonder if they are trying to pull a fast one?

I will see what else I can find out.

I am also going for the big 16g wheel. I have already got the injectors (subydude had them for 399 shipped), and I am sure as hell not paying for an IHI turbo.

Did you have to have part of the compressor side cut off (the right angle piece)? Or is it because you did any engine swap that you didn't have to?

I also have a BPM downpipe, and am trying to figure out if I need to lengthen or shorten the wastegate splitter inside of it to accomade the td05s.

Thanks


I doubt any Libertys ever came with TD05s. They can just look at the turbo, and read what it says. My TD05 and TD04 each say what they are in big lettering!

What injectors are you running?

I have the 90 degree inlet elbow still, as the engine was simply swapped over into my car. Modifying this inlet to a straight inlet is a major undertaking for someone who is skilled in fabriaction. Otherwise, you would be better off just creating a 90 degree elbow in your '02 WRX to accomodate the turbo, which is what iclub member Shik did on his TD05'd '02 WRX. The turbo will not bolt up to your existing downpipe, either. MRT sells adapters for purposes like these, you may want to email them to find out more...
SPeeDSiN
woh...
it won't bolt up to my downpipe???

is it the bolt pattern? or the wastegate flap that i will have a problem.

I have the sti 565cc but they aren't in right now.

I was under the impression that besides the elbow, it would be a fairly straight foward swap.

You are making me reconsider. Fortunately, you know what you are talking about and are saving me alot of time and money. I am very thankfull for that

Thanks
Aaron
annointed
quote:
Originally posted by SPeeDSiN
woh...
it won't bolt up to my downpipe???


Fortunately, you know what you are talking about and are saving me alot of time and money. I am very thankfull for that

Thanks
Aaron



Well, when I got my front clip and was horrified to find out it came with the tiny TD04, I planned on getting a VF23. I found out that I couldn't bolt up an IHI turbo to my '94 WRX motor without some serious fabrication that even the likes of Rallispec was unwilling to attempt.

I know you just thanked me for my input, but I honestly do not know for sure that the bolt patterns are different, but I assume they are. If the only difference is the 90 degree elbow, then you should be good to go, as this can be overcome. Shik would know better than I, as he is running this very turbo in his '02 WRX, so you should try emailing him.

Or, I can post a pic of my '94 WRX wagon TD04 bolt pattern, which matches the '94 WRX TD05 bolt pattern, and if someone has pics of the stock '02 WRX TD04, we can compare them.

Mark
DuoMaxwell
I was at the dealer a month ago because my buddy blew his 96 STI engine of course we are in Japan. I own a 94 WRX and have the TD05 Turbo. I was talking with them about prices and fit of the turbo. This might suprise you but to get a whole new TD05 turbo kit for my car will cost a whooping 153000 yen about $1300 in American and that is the whole kit pipe and all. Now here is where it gets weird for the STI Turbo kit that will fit just fine to my motor it would cost 143000 Yen about $1250 in American. I really not sure on the patterns on a USDM Version but most parts off the STI will bolt directly up to my car. This may be a whole different matter for your version. Unbelieveably the IHI is cheaper than the TD05. Now I may have been mistaken and they have the IHI Tubo kit already built for my car but I am pretty sure thats not the case. I would try and get some pics of the mount points from each turbo and where they would mount up to your car to compare , I am sure that it will save you alot of money and time if it turns out not to fit. Oh not sure what you mean by down pipe but I am assuming you mean the one comming down from the turbo. If so the one made by HKS fits a 94 WRX a 96 WRX and a 96 WRX STI I know this because me and 2 other friends all had the same pipe mounted onto our car.
Z1 Performance
Who who who,,back it up a bit here for a second and let's dispell some myths:

1. Liberty's and Legacies here and aborad (assuming youa re referrign to the single tubro BC-BF chassis) did not come with TD05 turbos..they had IHI units of 2 varieties...neither of which are very big, but are definately durable units.

2. Some WRX's, and all STi versions of the early GC chassi (1994-1996) came with TD05's with small 16g wheels...these are Mitsubishi tubros, with a bolt pattern proprietary to Subaru.

3. All early WRX's (to 1996) and all BC/BF Legacies have the 90 degree elbow on teh compressor side of the turbo...all post 1996 WRX's have an intake design akin to (but not exactly like) the new age (GDA/B) WRX's.

4. Any of the turbos, froma 1989 BC/BF Legacy/Liberty turbo, to a VF35 will bolt up on the downpipe side..that flange design is common to all later model Suabru turbos.

The intake side is where the trickery lays...if you get a turbo with the 90 degree elbow it need to be made into a straight pipe..easy to do, and not too costly either. of course there is the issue of waster and oil lines, but that is relatively minor...all can be done in a day.

On my own Legacy turbo (1991 US spec, 2.2 liter turbo) wwe swapped in the turbo (TD05 small 16G and top mounjt intercooler from a 1995 STi RA.....easy enough to do..oil and water lines matched perfectly from the IHI 52" turbo that my car had as stock to the later TD05 unit. Used an HKs downpipe for a new age WRX that, aside from having to extend the 02 sensor wires, was a diret drop in t my Legacy turbo. The compressor side of this turbo had the 90 degree elbow, and as such was a drop in for my car as well. Only thing that had to be done wa some vacuum line rerouting and relocation of the coolant bottle due to the intercooler backets.

I hope I was somewhat clear/coherent there as I know there is a lot of into....any questions, post here!

Adam
www.z1auto.com
Pavlo
The 220hph Liberty, or Legacy as they are known in the uk do not come with a TD04. They don't come with a TD05 either!

Uk spec car has VF12 turbo, performance somewhere between td04 and td05. Jap spec Legacy RS has VF14, with TD05 type performance. Both cars have an bolt on 90 degree elbow. US spec 160hp legacy has VF10, which isn't good for any serious power.

I have got a TD05 from a 94 Uk spec impreza, which I'm converting to front entry, and putting on a new engine.

All the turbos mentioned above will bolt on, although the TD05 has bigger fittings for the water cooling pipes, so you should make sure you get those with it. I've ended up brazing some normal pipes to M14 modified banjo hydraulic fittings.

For the money the TD05 is a great turbo, and good for about 350 hp at the flywheel. I say that in the context of the TD04 being good for only about 280hp at the flywheel as measured on rolling roads in the UK.

Front entry mod to td05 improves spool up, with a full decat, expect 15psi by about 3500 rpm.

THere are also plenty of US turbo companies that can hybid the TD05 with either the "big 16g", 18g, 17c 19c or other compressor wheels. Big 16g and 17c probably the best compromise in terms of lag and power, expect 380 hp potential.

TDo5 is a sleeve bearing turbo, fully rebuildable, and cheap as chips in the UK and Oz.

Paul
SPeeDSiN
Thanks guys
This is a whole lot of information to look over. I really appreciate it. I just can't figure out why the dismantler would tell me they have several turbos of the liberty when i specifically asked for a td05. Oh well, I thought my search had ended. I guess I am back to square one.

Anyone have a source for the TD05s. I have looked through the MRT forums, and email just about every subaru performance and dismantler in the AU and NZ (i am sure I missed alot though)

I know from research, the 16g is a really good street turbo.

Pavlo, do you think the 350hp at the flywheel is a little low? A stage 2 utec is supposed to be putting out 300hp on the factory TD04.

Also, what would the sweet spot be, efficiency wise, for the 16g. I am assuming its around 18psi??

Thanks
SPeeDSiN
Thanks guys
This is a whole lot of information to look over. I really appreciate it. I just can't figure out why the dismantler would tell me they have several turbos of the liberty when i specifically asked for a td05. Oh well, I thought my search had ended. I guess I am back to square one.

Anyone have a source for the TD05s. I have looked through the MRT forums, and email just about every subaru performance and dismantler in the AU and NZ (i am sure I missed alot though)

I know from research, the 16g is a really good street turbo.

Pavlo, do you think the 350hp at the flywheel is a little low? A stage 2 utec is supposed to be putting out 300hp on the factory TD04.

Also, what would the sweet spot be, efficiency wise, for the 16g. I am assuming its around 18psi??

Thanks
Jaxx
from 89-93 there was: legacy RS (jdm)220ps and legacy GT 200 ps both came with the rhb52
look here

link
annointed
quote:
Originally posted by SPeeDSiN
Also, what would the sweet spot be, efficiency wise, for the 16g. I am assuming its around 18psi??


Unless I'm reading this chart wrong (and I may be, as I'm just a math teacher who is not too experienced with compressor charts:D), the TD05-16g (small 16g) peak efficiency is ~17 psi. Those with more experience/insight into such charts are free to insert their analysis, and correct me!:p
annointed
Here's the chart for the TD05-16g with a big 16g compressor wheel. You'll notice that it is more efficient at higher boost (pressure) levels:
SPeeDSiN
i still don't know much about those maps...but if the big 16g can flow ~18psi at 70% efficiency, thats what i want!

hopefully one day i will have enough for the mrt fmic also...

so again..does anyone have a good source for the TD05s?


btw

Thanks for the maps annointed!!!
DuoMaxwell
A 96 WRX STI does not come with a TDO5 Turbo on it I know so cause about 5 steps out my front door sits one and the Turbo says IHI if I have to get a friend with a digital camera to take it so I can post it on here I will but to say the 96 STI came with TD05 is not exactly true maybe the early version did but anything that was manufacture Date of H14G9 or 96 September comes with the IHI. I dont mean to piss on anyones parade but I dont want the wrong information to be posted. This is the Jspec STI we are talking about. I own a 94 WRX mine says TD05 the 96 STI says IHI please dont take it the wrong way but the dealer even pulled up the diagram and its IHI. The STI turbos are known well due to them being ball bearing Turbos. Sorry to piss anyone off that is not what I am trying to do just clarify the issue on the turbos.
Jaxx
all the info that i have been able to find says that all inprezas w/ EJ20Gs had td05 even the sti .. the ej20k and newer had ihi

now since there is a total lack of good info which model year the sti switched to the "K"

96 was a major change year for subaru so that would make sense
annointed
From what I've read, early STi's can vary, and individual cars often come with different components. Someone who's imported a number of these cars has said that considering they're hand built, its almost like STi grabbed different parts at different times, working with what was available that particular day:p. Seems too random to me, but I wasn't going to argue with him, as he's seen more EJ20G STi's than I have.
DuoMaxwell
Subaru is a very strange company to me they are like a music artist who might release the same cd 2 times with only slight changes. At any one time during the year Subaru manufactured the Rex so after a certain month there were varying differences in the car. There are 2 versions of the 96 STI one made before September and one after you find this out by GOing to AutoBacs or any parts store and having them look at your title to find out which one it is due to the differences in the car the part may have been slightly different. Look around I promise without a doubt you find out there was an STI manufactured up to September of 96 and then there was a 96 STI that was made in the beginning or middle of September there are slight differences. Like the hood scoop and vents in a 94 and 96 are completely different in size and shape there are some differences in the STI's. I hope I didnt confuse everyone but most REX have 2 versions a year for some odd reason. Dont ask why cause I have no clue so Z1 may be right the early version 96 may have TD05 but the latter version came with IHI. I hope that helps explain why I said its not completely true again not tryin to piss anyone off just tryin to clarify the matter.
SPeeDSiN
I don't think anyone will argue that the STis had the TD05s. Common knowledge is that the REGULAR wrx had the TD05s. Well at least from my research, thats what I have learned.

I guess I meant to say that 94-97 WRX not STi had the TD05..right?
Jaxx
from the info that i have found looks like the standard wrx AND the STI had the TD05 from 11/92 through 8/96 the switch to the K model took place 9/96

this page link has the part numbers and the date (right after the part numbers)
Z1 Performance
Thanks Jaxx..that is exactly what I was referring to.. From 9/96 onwards (Subaru tends to make production changes anywhere from Aug-Oct of any given year), there were big changes done...hence Sti V3 and V2 are very different cars.

Adam
www.z1auto.com

[NICO]

thanks for the info but those guys are talking about libertys but it gives me a ruff idea.

[wind chaser]

What are the thicknesses of the banjos of the oil feed line that are on the vf11? I know they are 10mm and 12mm diameters, but i am wondering the dimension between the copper washers - like block to bolt head or turbo body to bolt head. And is the banjo that goes to the turbo the same vf11 to tdo5? I want to get another line made to put a bigger turbo on rather than modifying my old one. The shop needs to know that dimension to fit it right. I could pull it off but its been rainy and I don't want to get wet on my bike to get it made. Ya, I know- Big waaa.
Thanks for any info.

[BAC5.2]

Holy mother of thread revival!!

You don't need to modify anything. I didn't.

[azn2nr]

the thing is that is a vf39 hes trying to put on. and the oil line is about a 1/2 inch short on the oil line.

ivan, i tried to get a custom one made but it would have taken a long time and cost a pretty penny.

i do know that the bolt thats on the water lines are identical to the block side of the oil line.

[BAC5.2]

He never mentioned a VF39, just a TD05...

[azn2nr]

yeah but i was asuming because its my old vf39 that hes gonna be using.