Auto vs. Manual

livestrong14 · Post by **livestrong14** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 7:02 pm

Hey I have a 91' legacy turbo and I was wondering what would be faster, in the quarter mile? A 5 speed manual or a 4 speed auto with sportshift?
Thanks!

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:43 pm

Just to let you know, this thread will grow to be one of the largest and most heated discussions on this message board

91White-T · Post by **91White-T** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:55 pm

The auto will win every time, and here's why:

An auto trans will shift quicker than you can
It will never lose boost
You can launch with boost

If youre talking about stock, just let it shift by itself though as thats what its gonna do anyway. Now of course the manual is more fun to drive, and most every car enthusiast will prefer manual over auto(myself included) even if you sacrifice a few tenths in the quarter.

Busdriver · Post by **Busdriver** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:24 pm

91White-T said it all!!

ozymandius · Post by **ozymandius** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:08 pm

An auto trans will shift quicker than you can.

Not all of them can. I would say our 4EATs shift at an average speed- not too fast and bone-jarring, but not that slow. There are people who can shift a manual faster than the 4EAT, that's for sure. Nowadays, though, with more modern cars, the gap is closing. There are more and more automatic transmissions that shift pretty damn fast, but they still don't hold a candle to the new paddle-shifting manuals (like what WRC and F1 use).

The biggest benefit that comes from having an automatic transmission in a drag is that every shift is consistent. There are no slow or missed shifts. If you have your powerband or shift points setup correctly, then you will stay in the car's powerband the whole time too, but you can easily do that with a manual too.

There are a couple of bad things about having an automatic in a drag. One of them is weight- a Legacy equipped with the 4EAT weighs 300 lbs more than a Legacy with the 5MT. The other major disadvantage is that unless you have a high-stall torque converter, you won't be launching at high RPMs. For instance, stepping on the brakes and the gas in my mom's Audi A4 will yield a whopping 2000 RPM launch (I don't know what it is on the stock 4EAT, because I've never tried. Launching like that is tough on the trans, and I want my car to last). So, if you have a large turbo, you won't launch in your power band, and your 60' time will suck. With a manual, you can launch at whatever RPM you want (7k if you think your trans/driveline is up to it

). Last disadvantage- ATs suck down more power than a "simpler" MT will, so you'll have slightly less power getting to the wheels.

So in the end, it's really up to the driver. If you can shift quickly and consistently with a manual, then there's no reason to suffer the weight penalty of an automatic. On the other hand, if you have trouble with that stuff, sticking with an automatic maybe better for you.

Stock vs. stock, I think the manual Legacy (with a good driver, of course) would spank the automatic. The ability to launch at a higher RPM would mean the manual has the advantage right out of the hole, and with 300 lbs less, it would be just faster.

tris91ricer · Post by **tris91ricer** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:32 pm

Hey there. . .
I know . . .
How you feel
But I don't care at all
[/hawthorne heights]

I read your sig, and that's a noble goal; earning the respect of your hs peers. I understand.

But above all, what the boys failed to mention was that your car is awd. But you knew that

I wouldn't be surpised if you got your ass handed to you (in the 1/4) by an 88 dx hatch with a bodykit, 1.6heads and a fartcan. Simply put, awd is notfor drag racing. Your drivetrain loss puts you at a disadvantage even though you'll do a killer launch. :-p
A rwd conversion might be good for this case, but, all the scaenarios involve an extremely healthy transmission. If you don't want to have to replace your tranny immediately afterward, I suggest the manual swap. After all, it is your daily driver, right?

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:36 pm

ozymandius wrote:
Stock vs. stock, I think the manual Legacy (with a good driver, of course) would spank the automatic. The ability to launch at a higher RPM would mean the manual has the advantage right out of the hole, and with 300 lbs less, it would be just faster.

+1

gt2.5turbo · Post by **gt2.5turbo** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 4:52 pm

and isnt there a difference in the final drive ratio between the auto legacy tranny and manual? so that would contribute too right?

Post by **DLC** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:19 pm

The turbos have the same 3.9 ratio.

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:10 pm

ozymandius wrote:
An auto trans will shift quicker than you can.
Not all of them can. I would say our 4EATs shift at an average speed- not too fast and bone-jarring, but not that slow. There are people who can shift a manual faster than the 4EAT, that's for sure. Nowadays, though, with more modern cars, the gap is closing. There are more and more automatic transmissions that shift pretty damn fast, but they still don't hold a candle to the new paddle-shifting manuals (like what WRC and F1 use).

The biggest benefit that comes from having an automatic transmission in a drag is that every shift is consistent. There are no slow or missed shifts. If you have your powerband or shift points setup correctly, then you will stay in the car's powerband the whole time too, but you can easily do that with a manual too.

There are a couple of bad things about having an automatic in a drag. One of them is weight- a Legacy equipped with the 4EAT weighs 300 lbs more than a Legacy with the 5MT. The other major disadvantage is that unless you have a high-stall torque converter, you won't be launching at high RPMs. For instance, stepping on the brakes and the gas in my mom's Audi A4 will yield a whopping 2000 RPM launch (I don't know what it is on the stock 4EAT, because I've never tried. Launching like that is tough on the trans, and I want my car to last). So, if you have a large turbo, you won't launch in your power band, and your 60' time will suck. With a manual, you can launch at whatever RPM you want (7k if you think your trans/driveline is up to it ). Last disadvantage- ATs suck down more power than a "simpler" MT will, so you'll have slightly less power getting to the wheels.

So in the end, it's really up to the driver. If you can shift quickly and consistently with a manual, then there's no reason to suffer the weight penalty of an automatic. On the other hand, if you have trouble with that stuff, sticking with an automatic maybe better for you.

Stock vs. stock, I think the manual Legacy (with a good driver, of course) would spank the automatic. The ability to launch at a higher RPM would mean the manual has the advantage right out of the hole, and with 300 lbs less, it would be just faster.

Most of this post isn't true.

Some things:

The only way you're going to find a 4eat legacy that weighs 300 lbs more than a 5mt legacy is if you're comparing a Turbo to a FWD L or something, and even then it may not be 300 lbs. The difference in weight is not that drastic. The official difference between the cars is only 80-100 lbs.

I forget what the Turbo stall speed is, but it's more than the NA stall speed, and that's specified as between 2500-2900. So stalling a turbo is right in the powerband. And what good is it to launch a manual at 7000 rpms? The power sucking thing is such a thing of the past. The difference between the amount of power an automatic needs to work, and the amount of power a manual needs to work is really not that much.

People put too much emphasis on which tranny would be better, the difference between the two isn't enough to kill someone over. Neither are that great in stock form. If you stall an auto too many times you'll overheat it and kill it. If you launch a manual too many times you'll break a gear or something. Modify one of them if you really want to do this well.

LaureltheQueen · Post by **LaureltheQueen** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:57 pm

The awd platform is actually superior in the drag race scenario so long as your transmission is up for it. There's a reason the SRT-4 beats the STi from a roll but not from a dig. Plain and simple, AWD allows you to build your revs up higher without inducing the wheelspin that you would experience in front or rear wheel drive vehicles.

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 8:52 pm

LaureltheQueen wrote:The awd platform is actually superior in the drag race scenario so long as your transmission is up for it.

Well, this is true to an extent, mainly just in street vehicles though, but not so true in big time drag racing. If it was, then your Top Fuel cars would be AWD, which they obviously are not and there is a reason for that.

People are always saying that AWD is best for road and track conditions too, which really it's not. There is a reason that almost every high speed motor sport is RWD.

AWD is best for adverse conditions though fo sho!

91White-T · Post by **91White-T** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 9:37 pm

If a auto legacy weighed 300lbs more than a manual, that would mean that the auto trans weighs about 400+ pounds. Clearly not true. The stock manual trans also makes it pretty hard to shift fast.

tris91ricer · Post by **tris91ricer** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 9:54 pm

+1 Hardy
+1 Matt

Although you can take anyone from a dig, in drag racing, "There's no replacement for displacement."
Thankskelleyandsorryforthecliche*cough*

*clears throat*

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 9:56 pm

Yeah, I agree that 4eat doesn't way that much, it feels like it does though.

I have riden in a few 4eat SS's and they definitely felt slower then 5mt SS's though.

Manarius · Post by **Manarius** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:28 pm

LaureltheQueen wrote:The awd platform is actually superior in the drag race scenario so long as your transmission is up for it. There's a reason the SRT-4 beats the STi from a roll but not from a dig. Plain and simple, AWD allows you to build your revs up higher without inducing the wheelspin that you would experience in front or rear wheel drive vehicles.

SRT-4 beat a WRX from a roll? You gotta be kidding. I do believe that a WRX would smoke an SRT-4..hell it has at least 50 more HP.

91White-T · Post by **91White-T** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:32 pm

A WRX has less HP than a SRT-4

Manarius · Post by **Manarius** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:15 am

http://www.dodge.com/srt-4/ <-- looks like 250 to me.

http://www.subaru.com/shop/overview.jsp ... _STI_SEDAN <-- looks like 300 to me.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:17 am

That's an STi.

Manarius · Post by **Manarius** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:28 am

vrg3 wrote:That's an STi.

Well, why would one buy a WRX that isn't an STi? I certainly wouldn't. It's like buying a corvette that isn't a Z06...

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:28 am

Or a Legacy that isn't a turbo...

91White-T · Post by **91White-T** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:41 am

Manarius wrote:http://www.dodge.com/srt-4/ <-- looks like 250 to me.

http://www.subaru.com/shop/overview.jsp ... _STI_SEDAN <-- looks like 300 to me.

Right, except you said WRX not STi.

Manarius · Post by **Manarius** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:43 am

91White-T wrote:Right, except you said WRX not STi.

When it comes to my opinion WRX = STi. I wouldn't buy a WRX that isn't an STi.

wiscon_mark · Post by **wiscon_mark** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:04 am

vrg3 wrote:Or a Legacy that isn't a turbo...

hey now!

An STi would spank an SRT-4 in any situation, but a WRX would get its ass handed to it, because of drivetrain loss and inferior horsepower. Although the new 06 WRX has a lot more torque...

Yeah, I agree with Manarius, a non-STi WRX is just a waste

dzx · Post by **dzx** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:21 am

I'd really like to see some dyno numbers for a legacy ss with the 4eat vs the manual one.

And...I have to agree that I think a manual SS would take a 4eat stock for stock..and i think it would be pretty ugly. Mine was an automatic when i got it and it was definately a lot faster when it became a manual but that might also have had something to do with the gear ratio's changing.

I also think an auto with the same mods as my car would be slower in the 1/4 mile. But that's just speculation.

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Auto vs. Manual

Auto vs. Manual