4EAT< 5-spd dogbox?

RS1TC · Post by **RS1TC** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:18 am

Ok, this is a big hypothetical situation. Sorry for those who clicked hoping to see some orgy of straight teeth and yea that stuff. I am going to be picking up a 91 SS w/ 4EAT transmission. It has 138k miles on it so I figure the tranny will be out soon if it isn't already dead. When that happens, I will be doing a 5-spd swap. I haven't found much on dogboxes yet. I don't want to have to take the tranny apart twice so I'm trying to get this done right the first time. I was wondering what 5-spd transmissions will fit the 91 Legacy SS's besides finding a turbo 5-spd tranny? Also, if anyone knows of anybody that has one they would like to get rid of, let me know. And, if anyone knows where I can find out more about swapping a 5-spd, besides the stickied thread at the top of the drivetrain forum feel free to direct me there. I know I should do better searching but I figure this would give the drivetrain forum a little bump. Thank you all very much, in advance.

subawhatsubawho · Post by **subawhatsubawho** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:14 am

www.gearboxtech.com

(shameless plug!)

BAC5.2 works for them...thats what he does. He will most likely be chiming in soon.

tris91ricer · Post by **tris91ricer** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:17 pm

This has been discussed in Phil and I's thread about the VSS.

The Vehicle Speed Sensor is what's right behind your odometer and tripmeter. Its also the piece that keeps the numbers in place. All it does is register that the vehicle is moving. It gets this physical input from the speedometer cable, a spinning action from the pronged/flat deal that goes into the

*gasp*. . .

Gearbox.

It sits in the gearbox between 3rd and 4th gear. (Correct me if I'm wrong) this becomes an issue with dogboxes, as they're not equipped for speedometers, per se.
Then there's the wiring challenges, of course. You'll need to either run a standalone management system, or somehow fake the vss signal to the ecu, as it won't be there. You also won't have a speed indicator. Basically, if you're going with dogbox, and you're gonna take down all your wiring and redo it, don't revert to stock.

You gotta understand that Phil has put in time, massive amounts of time, and energy researching and learning about his mods, before he does them. He's aiming(and damn close!) to make enough power that a stock tranny would not be able to hold, which is why he's going with a hardened gearset, sans synchros.

Why do you want a dogbox, again? And you're equipped to put together a gearset?

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:55 pm

Tristan - He did make enough power that his stock transmission failed. The same happened to a few others of us.

RS1TC - If you do have significant power goals, it probably does make sense to save up for some kind of upgrade gearbox from the get-go. A dog box may or may not be the best answer for you, but searching through BAC5.2's posts (and threads he's participated in) over the past six months or so is probably a good place to start...

Searching will also reveal to you what 5-speed transmissions fit your car. The simple answer is that pretty much all modern Subaru transmissions will fit, but that some will require pieces to be swapped because of smaller differences, like clutch type or final drive ratio or shift linkage type.

A WRX transmission case will accept a wider variety of aftermarket gears than a stock Legacy Turbo transmission case.

RS1TC · Post by **RS1TC** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:15 am

vrg3- Significant power is in the future. I wasn't aware of the other options besides when I saw pictures of a dogbox I was like "thats meaty and I should start saving and researching them."
The project hasn't even begun yet, so there is plenty of time for research and tool aquistion. My friend and I are very enthusiastic DIYers. I will search out the other options for transmissions that will last/hold up against significantly higher than stock power. That brings me to something else, does anyone know how much power the stock driveshafts/ axles can handle? Also, would there be any problem running a gear box that can stand high power on a stock motor? I.E. autotranny dies and I will be putting my money there first kind of thing. This isn't a buy first think about it later kind of project either. Thank you for all the help and hopefully there will be more to come.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:08 am

First - Dogboxes, at least the ones we sell (strongest in the world), DO allow speedometer operation. The box going in my car does not allow this, because there was never a speedometer scroll machined into the 3/4 Input Side cluster.

A dogbox is not for the faint of heart. It's truly a pain in the dick to drive one. At the same time, it makes you really cool. It's loud, harsh, unforgiving, and in no way allows the car to be a daily driver. If you don't rev-match and double clutch every single street-shift, you won't get it politely into gear.

I know a lot about these transmissions. A LOT. My boss knows more, but I learn new stuff daily.

Is a dogbox right for you? Probably not. Why am I using one? Opportunity, and ultimate strength. Plus, I intend to go fast enough that I'll be kicked off the track for not having a roll cage. It's also expensive. It's actually REALLY expensive.

You can't do this on your own. The install is tedious and tolerances matter a LOT. Plus, you need lots of specialty tools, and since it would be your first time, you would most definately mess it up.

As far as pricing. A straight cut dogbox will run you $5000 for JUST the gears (though this does include all of the essential bits). You need a donor tranny on top of this. Then labor. Ship us a tranny, labor is $750. If you want a helical dogbox (helical cut gears. Not as noisy, not as strong, the gears alone retail for $5200).

What kind of power do you want to make? You COULD put the dogbox in your stock car if you wanted, but people would laugh at you.

We have customers making 400lb-ft on the beefed up synchro gearsets we sell. PPG makes a straight cut synchro gearset as well as a helical set. The price for a 1-4 synchro set is $3500 + labor (and misc. parts too).

The website above is the shop I work at.

A Legacy Turbo transmission will accept the PPG Dogbox, but will not accept the PPG Synchro gears.

PPG makes the strongest gearsets in the world. We have never had a broken synchro set, and we have only had one real dogbox failure due to power (650whp + 150 shot of Nitrous + R-compound's + Very sticky dragstrip + 3 years of professional Time Attack Race abuse).

If your goals are 11's or lower, a dogbox is pretty much required.

I'm confident that I can answer any transmission question you can throw at me. Espically if it's an internal question. Like I said, I've learned a LOT.

RS1TC · Post by **RS1TC** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:32 am

OMG BAC5.2 FTW!
Ok, $6000 for an indestructable tranny seems like a good price to me. Speedometer operation would be a definite plus. What kind of car should the donor tranny come out of? The in the end goal for this car is (laugh if you want) 10sec streetable. I am not saying it's going to be done tomorrow but maybe in 3-4 years with current income(and motivation). This is kind of off topic but is it possible to run a newer 6spd tranny on the Turbo Legacy's? I'm just trying to see if there is any option to make this beast reasonable for the drive to the track. What are the options for the 5th and possibly 6th gears? From what I have read it looks like you keep your stock 5th gear. What are the differences between a sychro set and non-sychro'd set?(In terms of driving dynamics.) As you can see I have a lot to learn and I don't think I said anywhere in my posts that I was an expert. I would leave building the gearset to you guys. Once it is all good to go though, does the tranny just bolts up like anyother one? I appreciate all the information. Thanks

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:37 am

WRX tranny is best.

The 6-speed sucks, but it could be done. They make a 1-4 dogbox that keeps the stock 5th and 6th. I've posted pics of that input shaft before.

Tranny bolts up like the stock one.

As far as driving dynamics goes, there is no syncro to match the shaft speed to the gear speed, so you must do that manually. It's violent, and not always easy. They are also loud. When you shift, you hear a loud CLACK as the collar engages. The synchro sets are like stock, but MUCH stronger. Shifting is faster with a dogbox, but less "streetable". People will complain when they ride with you.

I'll have a video of the dogbox in my car once it's finished.

Your goal is about the same as mine. I want 11's at least. I can drive anything, so it's all streetable to me.

azn2nr · Post by **azn2nr** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:54 am

what i dont understand is, do you have to grind it into gear each time or slam it in for less grind. i watched the element time attack vid and it didnt seem like gary was revmatching at all, just driving it. i mean other than the noise what particulary makes it unstreetable. no one near me has one in their car so i cant exactly see for myself. and ive seen vids of kids who deliver pizzas in their sti's that have dog boxes so elobrating more on the experience beyond a clack and whine is appricated

rallysam · Post by **rallysam** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:17 am

I have the same question. When I've seen dogboxes raced, they don't seem to be rev matching. Hell, Patrick Richard doesn't even use the clutch when he downshifts he just slams that mofo hard. When you say rev-matching is necessary, do you just mean on the street or am I missing something?

Check this shifting out: CRAZY
http://www.rocketrally.com/managed/mod- ... d-41.phtml

PS - Phil's (BAC5.2's) shop rocks.

rallysam · Post by **rallysam** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:20 am

azn2nr wrote:what i dont understand is, do you have to grind it into gear each time or slam it in for less grind. i watched the element time attack vid and it didnt seem like gary was revmatching at all, just driving it. i mean other than the noise what particulary makes it unstreetable. no one near me has one in their car so i cant exactly see for myself. and ive seen vids of kids who deliver pizzas in their sti's that have dog boxes so elobrating more on the experience beyond a clack and whine is appricated

PS - I believe that element car you saw in the video is the one that Phil mentioned with the blown tranny. I watched him drive up to Phil's shop one day with a gaping hole in the side of the tranny. Pretty cool car.

Tleg93 · Post by **Tleg93** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:46 pm

Why would anyone want to dump a $5k gearbox into a late model Subaru?

RS1TC · Post by **RS1TC** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:41 pm

The question is not why but rather, why not?
Really though, some peoples power goals go way above and beyond the factory drivetrain components strength.

skid542 · Post by **skid542** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:52 pm

^^^ I aim to once I'm out of school and have a job. It's so we don't blow the transmission after spending exhorborant amounts of money to do engine swaps and build ups. Once I'm out of school it's EJ257 and new tranny for my leggy.

RS1TC, Phil knows his stuff and his shop knows even more. If you're serious, he's your man.

Tleg93 · Post by **Tleg93** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:02 pm

I guess for me it's an issue of liking to work on cars but not wanting to perpetually do it all the time. My goal is to have respectable power without draining my wallet on it too much. If I was to go crazy with the need to have power I would think about it, but 5k isn't chump change to me. All told, it seem to me that spending 10 thousand or more to beef up a legacy is respectable for those with the cash to do it but not for me. I'd rather take that money and make more money with it somehow as opposed to spending it on my car, unless I'm going to get some return from it. I respect those that have the means and time to do these things though but I had to ask because I'm trying to understand what lengths I may go to one day. I'm admittedly ignorant about drivetrain issues but there must be an alternative to the dogbox for those with more modest power goals.

skid542 · Post by **skid542** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:22 pm

I wholely agree Scott that it's not a small chunk of change that should be spent willy-nilly but for 20k I can make legacy like new with new parts and at the same time with that money I can make it stand against STi's reliably. Which if you compare 20k against the price of a new car, it looks pretty appealing.

The dogbox isn't the only way to go. The beefed up synchro sets (my plan) will shift and drive pretty much like your current tranny, just a lot stronger. And then you can look at straight vs. helical cut, so yes there are lots of options for high power transmissions.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:35 pm

Gary doesn't really revmatch. Most racers don't rev-match, to tell the truth. Why not? Because that's why you have a dogbox. They aren't revmatching, but they are shifting fast as SHIT.

It will be easier to explain with video, but it goes a little something like this....

There are two ways to reduce the grind. One is to shift fast as a motherfucker. Faster than you would ever think to shift, and HARD too. You'll still get a fairly violent shake on the shift, but it's nothing that wouldn't be unlivable on the race track. You drive around the shock as you instantly go from 1st to 2nd gear (or whatever).

The second way to reduce the grind, is to double clutch and revmatch and such. This is the more streetable solution, since you aren't running 11's everywhere you go on the street. This allows you to shift a little more leisurely.

If you try to shift slowly with a dogbox, and don't double clutch, you'll just bounce the collar off of the engagement teeth, and you won't really be able to get it into gear.

You can shift without the clutch, by careful modulation of the right foot on the gas. You can also just let off quickly and FLING it into gear as hard as you can.

With a synchro transmission when you shift from first to second, you have the shift collar and a synchro. When you pull it out of first, the first gear synchro removes tension. Pulling it into second, the synchro must first slow the shaft down, and then allow the collar to slide over the balk teeth and onto the gear.

With a dog engagement, you simply mate the dog ring (the shift collar) to the gear itself. BANG. It's cool. PPG actually makes a 5-speed Group N spec gearset that has a dog engaged Reverse. I have yet to drive one, but I bet that's violent as shit!

PPG also makes beefed up synchro gearsets for people making lots of power, but who don't want the annoyance of a dogbox. Don't kid yourself thinking it's a simple thing. Driving a dogbox is annoying if it's not your thing.

The main benefit of a dogbox, is that you can shift a TON faster. We had a customer. Running consistant 12's. 12.0, 12.0, 12.0. Couldn't break that time. The ONLY change he did was a gear change, and he ran an 11.3. He went from a synchro box to a helical dogbox, and dropped 7/10 of a second. And that's not going from a 16 to a 15.3. That's dropping 7/10ths off of a 12 second pass! That's an incredible difference.

I'll post a video showing how to shift a dogbox when I get mine in.

And Jason, the car I am talking about IS the Element Time Attack car. Phil broke a helical dog box, now they are running a straight cut dogbox.

Tleg93 · Post by **Tleg93** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 6:33 pm

From that point of view I can understand somewhat. I guess you either feel it or you don't. I like the idea of a fast car but I don't race 1/4 miles enough to be really obsessed with it. I'm just a Joe Schmo looking for some fun and a mechanical hobbyist seeking to satisfy a curiosity. That being said, someone should do it just so others can look at it and be amazed.

Oh yeah, I'm not trying to tear this idea down, I'm just putting in my .02. Much props to the real doers.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 8:20 pm

I bought the Mazda3 so I can afford (in clear conscience) to get a synchro monster box for the wagon after getting a house (damned downpayment). Otherwise, I guess I'd be driving a new GT or the like (or Elise if it weren't for the house).

Phil, can you guys source transmissions? I'd like a turbo Legacy center diff for the WRX box, but there aren't many used transmission options locally and having it shipped here and then to the shop and back again seems stupid. Your shop's labor rates seem very reasonable. Is there any kind of warranty?

Steve

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:11 pm

Steve -

Buy Matt's old Center Diff? I've got another one too, if he won't part with his.

He's actually got a whole Legacy Turbo Tranny that's blown that you may be interested in.

The entire rear section from the Legacy Turbo would have to be used. The transfer gears mount differently, so they aren't interchangeable. It's no biggie. See how much Matt wants for his blown setup.

No warranty, but that's mainly because we don't get one on the gears either. If WE fuck up, we'll handle it. There aren't many flaws. If there are, PPG mans up, and they usually cover it.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:18 pm

That was my main concern - installation error. Not that I think you guys run charity mentally disabled work programs for a tax write-off there, but things happen. I assumed there wouldn't be a warranty on the parts due to the unaccountable abuse they would be put through (I mean, you're not buying one of these to be a parade float).

I'll definitely check with Matt. I won't be able to do this until the summer, probably. I should be able to start looking at houses in a few months, but who knows how long it will take to actually get one. At least prices have dropped.

Steve

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:11 am

Steve - I can assure you it will be done correctly. If it's not, we'll take care of it

.

Search Nasioc for Andrewtech Automotive or Gearboxtech. We have an unflawed reputation, globally.

rallysam · Post by **rallysam** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:19 am

They do spectactular quality work. Very meticulous. I wouldn't worry about that angle. I mean you're correct - S happens and you can't prevent that. But, these guys are as good as mere mortals can be.

And even if there's no official warranty, they will bend over backwards to make things right if something goes wrong. Heck, they even bend over backwards to help me when *I* mess something up!!!

555BCTurbo · Post by **555BCTurbo** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:21 pm

Just go drive Semi Truck for a while, that will get you in the swing of synchroless, clutchless, rev match shifting....

Its really not all that hard...as I drive semi at work, and shift 10 times to get up to 25mph...without a grind...

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:33 pm

Semi's are a little different. Dogboxes, yes, but not like a car. The technique is similar though.

Motorcycles have dogboxes too. I never grind on my CBR, even when shifting clutchless.

The same, but different.

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4EAT< 5-spd dogbox?

4EAT< 5-spd dogbox?