My turbo project!

[ej2294legacySS]

Hey everyone! I started a project of turbocharging my subaru. Its not a Sport Sedan, its a Sun Sport model. SO back to the point, i aquired a Mitsubishi TO4H and a Bosch BOV. Peaced the rest together from my toyota graveyard i have in the back and viola!! turbo subie!

The question is this, if i am at 7psi on the waste gate, and 5psi on the BOV spring, is this going to make it hang at 7 or 5 PSI? This weekend the final hard line plumbing is going in and the car is going to be ran for the first time with forced induction.

Everything i have read says the 7psi is scraping against the danger zone on my EJ22. Its stock.

Can you guys think of anything i can add to this setup before i fire it up and write the sucide note for this EJ22?? I dont want it to be a time bomb on 7psi, any real worries at this boost?


You guys are an inspiration to the industry!



ben

[BAC5.2]

Actual pressure doesn't blow motors (though it helps). Volume of air does.

7psi on one turbo is different than the 7psi on a different turbo.

If you have 5-psi on the BOV spring, then at 5psi, the BOV will open and start venting air. If it's atmospheric, you'll run SO rich, the car will probably stall, or at least be slower than it would be if you were off-boost.

You'd best fix that by getting a different BOV or crushing it (if it's metal) to increase it's holding ability.

Time bomb? Probably. I think all of the XN/A cars on the board have blown at least one motor. I think doug has personally been through like 4.

[AWD_addict]

Those Sun Sports are pretty rare, this would be the only turboed Sun Sport I've ever heard of.

Got any pictures?

[ej2294legacySS]

Yeah, sourced it out specifically after i had one in a wagon version. I absolutly love the front wheel drive, i am an FF fanatic. But i have owned enough platforms to know why i have an addiction to front drivers. long story.


Anyway yes i have pics of it,







I am in the process of tearing apart the exaust you see in the pics and fabricating a new section from head to turbo. This weekend is gonna be the deadline.

The turbo pics,









I would post bigger pics but i dont want to leave anyone out.


This is the first time my work or car has had public criticizm due to the fact i dont have a NORMAL setup, 450lb springs, stock shocks in front, stock springs and shocks rear. Believe me it is a drastic improvement over factory, no more sway, dive, or violent pitch, resulting in both front tires to stay on the ground. MORE TRACTION. But a turbocharger should even that out in one huge hurry.


Ben

[Splinter]

Can't post pics from yahoo, they cycle their links.

Use photobucket, or THAWA's gallery if it's back up

[ej2294legacySS]

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dorikinae86/

that link should take you to a public album where my toyota projects are being uploaded soon and my subaru turbo project is already there.




Ben

[AWD_addict]

Cool, good luck with your turbo setup.

[ej2294legacySS]

So... I have read that venting my Bosch BOV atmosepherically is not good. And, neither is the fact i am running a waste gate at 7 psi.


Should i give up and scrap the idea? Am i doing this all wrong?? Have all the books and web pages of research in the last 4 years gone to waste? What am i doing wrong here?

Help please,



Ben


The bov is at 5psi

[vrg3]

You shouldn't use the BOV to regulate boost. It acts based on the pressure differential between its inlet and its vacuum port, so 5 psi is probably about the right setting for the spring. You have the vacuum port hooked up to the intake manifold, right?

So that means your turbo is going to produce 7 psi. 7 psi is a lot of boost, yes. The EJ22 could do okay, though, provided you're doing everything else right. Are you doing everything else right?

[ej2294legacySS]

Well, if the whole thread was read, you would know that i was told this. And that i am in the process of finishing the turbo system. I am on the final plumbing for the intake and exaust.

I just was under the impression that i have to counter spring the wastegate to regulate UNDER the BOV limit. Thus it will let the BOV to work as it should.

If in the case i dont route the BOV into the intake pipe before the turbo i will run RICH. Whats up with that?

Yes i have the BOV hooked up AFTER the throttle body on the engine side. To be exact its on the intake runner for #2, My own location to hide it.


The question i had in the first place is why would it cause a rich setting if it wasn't re-circulated to the intake pipe?

Thanks,



Ben

[vrg3]

Hey, dude, I'm trying to help... I did read the thread, and I thought I was giving you more information.

What I'm saying is that the blowoff valve doesn't have anything to do with the wastegate if you connect the manifold reference. The blowoff valve acts on the difference between its inlet and the manifold, not on any absolute or gauge pressure. It will open just when the throttle plate is closed.

The answer to your question about why it runs rich can be asnwered by searching for "bov rich atmospheric".

I was also trying to answer your question in the first post about whether we can think of anything else you can do before firing it up; that's why I was asking if you had done everything else right. Have you? What are you doing to cool the intake charge? What are you doing to get the exhaust gases away from the turbo? What are you doing to get the right amount of fuel to go with the air? What are you doing to get the spark to happen at the right time?

[vrg3]

Waaaiiiit..... Explain exactly how you have the blowoff valve installed.

[ej2294legacySS]

I dont need to say anymore. DID YOU READ MY POSTS???????!!!!!! I said that its not even installed??????? Did i miss spell something??




STOCK means STOCK, just the turbocharger and BOV. Just letting the computer take care of it at boost. Do i need more? Why have other people in the auto industry run boost on a BOX STOCK setup. Because it can be done.



Maybie i do know what i am doing. I quess i will just update you on how it went, not how its going. I feel like that will be more the story due to the fact i seem to not know anything about turbo systems!

[vrg3]

Dude, I'm out. I don't need this abuse.

[BAC5.2]

If you can't figure out why a post-maf leak would cause a rich-running problem, then you do NOT know as much as you think you do.

BOV spring tension is all relative to turbo output. If you have a crazy high-flowing turbo, you'll see the BOV flutter quite a bit when you close the throttle plate (a huge pressure difference, BOV will open and the piston will bounce when it bottoms out the spring)

A stock BOV is designed to recirculate. If you vent it to the atmosphere, you will run into the problem of metered air exiting the intake tract before it gets to the engine.

If the ECU reads that X amount of air is coming in, it will fuel for that much air. When you leak some of that air out, the computer won't know and inject just as much fuel as it would without the leak. You have now decreased your air:fuel ratio, and thus richened up the mix.

Reading your poorly structured, and offensive posts, it's difficult to know if you actually DO have things set up correctly.

This reply is FAR nicer than it should have been, with the way you have treated VRG3. Consider this a warning. Watch your tone, and respect people that DEFINATELY know more than you do. Otherwise, everyone else is far less inclined to help you out. The thought of "fuck you, go figure it out yourself" crossed my mind after the way you treated VRG3. I bet it's crossed other minds as well. We don't need an attitude like yours polluting the good nature of our board.

I'll kindly ask you to re-read your own posts before submitting them. You asked for help. VRG3 provided suggestions. Remember that.

[ej2294legacySS]

Reading your poorly structured, and offensive posts, it's difficult to know if you actually DO have things set up correctly.

I am holding my tounge now, this is hard to deal with. I was asking if i am running into trouble with this type of turbo system, a garret turbo and a bosch BOV. If i was asking how to make a turbo system i would consult a book.

NOBODY ever asked what type of setup i was running until after telling me i may be doing it wrong, or running rich with no explanation to any of this. So this seems to be a strong case of shoot first ask questions later i take it.

I have been a toyota tuner for years. The subaru scene is rather new to me. So call me a NOOB or whatever. I dont know how to post without getting flamed by everyone! I ask a question, shot down, I post about a project, its wrong, i post my current suspention setup and guess what? You fucking know-it-alls seem to see it as junk!


if VRG3 is sooooo smart why does he have to be a dick? Ask a composed question and be clear about what your saying and i wont get pissed about a quick 3 liner telling me that i am wasting my time reading it!

[Splinter]

Wow dude you're all over the place. No one criticized you until you started getting sassy.

Take a few deep breaths and organize yourself.

Tell us a little more about how you have your intake, including the turbo and BOV setup


If you're trying to push 7psi into the stock ej22 without an intercooler, I'd say the thing you'd want to get most before you fire up the car is an umbrella for when it starts raining engine parts.

[BAC5.2]

Let's start this over then.

You say Mitsubishi TO4H and a bosch BOV. You didn't say what the setup was stock from.

You asked if boost will be 7psi or 5psi? Boost will be whatever the wastegate is good for.

The way you worded your initial post, made it sound as if you wanted to control boost using the BOV. Truthfully, my inital post was a bit misleading. The BOV requires 5psi to open. The pressure difference between the manifold and the "charge pipe" must be greater than 5psi for the valve to open. The problem with stock-spec valves, is that they are designed to recirculate air back into the intake (post maf, and pre-turbo). Because of this, the valves tend to be open at idle (with vacuum drawn on the manifold, and air constantly flowing through the intake, there is a definate pressure difference). So if you vent one of these valves to the atmosphere, it will leak at idle. You now have air, that's been metered, exiting the system. The ECU fuels based on air flowing through the maf. Air leaves the system before entering the engine, and the ECU still fuels for the air that flowed through the sensor. See what I'm getting at? You either need a BOV that is designed to be vented to the atmosphere, or you need to recirculate the BOV you have.

There. Question 1 answered, in depth.

Question 2: Is 7psi too much boost?

Boost doesn't really mean very much. It's about airflow. Volume of air. One turbo could flow 800cfm of air at a 2:1 pressure ratio. Another can flow 900cfm @ 2:1. Same boost pressure number, one turbo pushes more air than the other.

So is 7psi too much? If you were running a TO4R, yea, 7psi would be a problem. On a VF11, 7psi is less than stock, and it would probably be OK.

So unless you have compressor maps for the turbo you have, it's tough to say. 7psi gives a pressure ratio of 1.48:1. Give us more info on the turbo if you want to know if 7psi is too much.

Question 2: answered in detail.

Finally. Anything to add? Just make sure you've done things correctly. If you don't do things right, kiss the motor goodbye.

As for VRG3 being a dick? I don't see where. Maybe we didn't read the same posts by him. His post was clarifying my post, and explaining how things work. You might have known, or you might not have. To be perfectly honest, the way you worded your post, it came off as if you were unsure of how things work. VRG3 was only trying to help. Based on previous posts (namely, your "normal N/A performance" thread), it would seem that you might be slightly misinformed about a few things, toyota tuner for years or no.

Trust me, no one meant any malice. Just trying to help. Maybe it was us, who got the wrong impression. Whatever it was, it was miscommunication.

[Subtle]

Peace Bro

[corsair]

I think Vrg3's question that caused all the trouble came from this:

Yes i have the BOV hooked up AFTER the throttle body on the engine side. To be exact its on the intake runner for #2, My own location to hide it.

Can you clarify that please?

[ej2294legacySS]

I do believe that my lack of a description on the setup and the lengthy amount of time it took to reply is what caused the mix up. I was at a tough point in my life a couple months ago.

I want to openly express my deepest apologies to the people that I got frustrated with and yell at. I should be very clear about what I am talking about if I am to not post pics of the setup.

I hung my head, tucked my tail between my legs and slinked off to a dark corner to sulk and take apart my 3/4 of the way finished turbocharging system.

I regret wasting the time of everyone who tried to help, but couldn't, due to MY ignorance.


I hope that there is no bad blood between anyone and myself but I do understand that most will be aprehensive to talk to me, let alone help me trouble shoot.

My car is now running a 2" pvc pipe intake with a pod filter in the stock air box location and I took both sides of the exaust header and did a TRUE dual exaust that exits behind both front wheels.

It sounds good and it provides some entertainment on the drive to work.


Loving my Legacy,


Ben Bowen



ps. Personal aplogies go out to VRG3 for starters. You are an encylopedia of information, I am really sorry for the miscommunication and my bad attitude.

BAC5.2, I started studying the air flow charts on similar A/R turbo's and now know what you were explaning and aplogize for being a loose cannon with my words.


Splinter, I WAS all over the place, I am truely sorry for my attitude.


Everyone else that took the time to read this thank you all for the support although I am not deserving of being a part of this clean community of subaru owners after the way I treated everyone that helped.

[corsair]

wow I'm sorry I resurrected your thread and brought that stuff up, I've been looking at doing a homebrew turbo setup and have been digging around all sorts of threads


it's all good though man, having personally met Vrg3 and BAC5.2 and knowing the kind of people we have here I'm sure nobody harbors much bad blood

[Subtle]

Exhausts out both sides---entertaining, indeed

[evolutionmovement]

I'm a little confused ... is it a twin turbo or N/A with duals? If it's N/A, how does it sound? I was thinking of that with my future EA81/EJ22 project but wasn't sure if it would sound good after all the work. Do you have a crossover pipe between them?

[206er]

sounds like its loud.
hows the power?
personally I wouldnt do a dual exhaust for scavenging reasons.