2.2T pinging Ignition timing way off??

[Brice k]

:Edit: I have fixed the pinging problem. It turnes out it was a faulty coil. Apparently the coil was leaking voltage to the wrong spark plugs. I swaped a junkyard coil on and my problems went away.


I checked my timing with a timing light and found the ignition timing to be retarded about 150*

I figure I must have done somthing wrong because the engine idles fine @ ~600 rpm, and runs OK until it gets a load on it and starts pinging.

:what I did:


Firewall

3............4

1............2 Correct?

Radiator


Connected a timing light to #1 wire.
Jumped the green connector under the dash
checked the timing. Looking at the crank pulley the timing mark looked to be at about 4 o-clock.

What did I do wrong?

I have a 93 Legacy 2.2 turbo 5spd.

I removed my smt6 ignition control

Brice

[vrg3]

You do have the cylinder numbers correct.

I've never used a timing light on an EJ engine, but maybe you're supposed to put the light on the #3 or #4 cylinder?

150 degrees ATDC on cylinder 1 or 2 happens to also be 30 degrees BTDC on cylinders 3 and 4.

Idle timing is supposed to be around 15 degrees BTDC. If you are indeed getting 30 degrees of advance, that's a bit much.

[Brice k]

The funny thing is that I tried the timing light clamp on all 4 plug wires and the timing mark on the crank didn't move at all.

Could this posibly indicate a faulty coil or igniter?

I have no cel codes

Checked KS, re-clocked the TPS, replaced the ECT sender, and swaped on another MAF.
I Tried to check MAf and TPS but I don't have an accurate enough DC volt meeter to properly check the output voltages.

I could check or swap out the CP1 and CP2 senders but if they were bad they would throw a CEL right?

I've been fighting with a Detenation problem for months. It used to be pretty intermittent and as far as I could tell totally random, but now the pinging is there all the time if I go to more than 1/8 throttle.

I just removed my SMT6 piggyback controller.

Any help is appreaciated.

I already have a chiltons book, and have downloaded the Subaru manual pdf's.

[vrg3]

Wait, that doesn't make any sense... am I missing something? How would it be possible for all four cylinders to fire at the same crankshaft angle?

If all four cylinders are sparking, I don't think I would suspect the coil or the ignitor.

CP1 and CP2 are the camshaft position and crankshaft position sensors? A trouble code for one of these sensors is usually only thrown if the signal is missing. A weak signal might not trip a trouble code.

We must be missing something. How could it be sparking at the same crank angle for each cylinder? Is something so off that your engine is running on only two cylinders? Try unplugging injectors one at a time while the engine is idling; if a cylinder is not doing its job, unplugging its injector won't affect idle quality.

Can you describe exactly how you knew the engine was detonating?

[Brice k]

It's running on all cylinders.
idles fine
revs smooth all the way to redline

pinging is obvious. I just drive around with the window down. I can hear pinging when i get on the throttle, like I said it only takes about 1/8 throttle for me to hear slight pinging, if I give it a little more the pinging gets worse.

I do know that these coils produce "wasted spark"
Basically it fires 2 plugs at the same time, one of those sparks is wasted on the exhaust stroke.

Is the crank pulley key'd for only one position, or could somone have clocked it 180*?

Chiltons said to jump that diagonostic pin under the steering wheel while checking timing. Is that correct?

Thanks.

Brice

[Brat4by4]

pinging is obvious. I just drive around with the window down. I can hear pinging when i get on the throttle, like I said it only takes about 1/8 throttle for me to hear slight pinging, if I give it a little more the pinging gets worse.

Possibly he is hearing wastegate flutter?

And wouldn't he be better off reading the timing from a scantool?

[kleinkid]

My daughter's 94 N/A Legacy LSI had been pinging for a while. I had never done Seafoam on that car, so thought that it couldn't hurt it to try it in the intake. With the engine warmed up and running we put about a half can through a funnel in the hose to the PCV. Shut it down and let it sit for 15 minutes. Took it for a drive and it pinged for a while and gradually the pinging stopped. Later that day my daughter drove back over the mountains to Ellensburg and said it no longer pings. Just because it is so simple it might be worth a try for your car. Couldn't hurt.

[vrg3]

I don't mean to be rude or anything, but are you sure you're hearing detonation? Not something like heat shield rattle or valve clatter or wastegate flutter as Brat4by4 suggests?

Usually detonation without CELs is not associated with smooth revving all the way to redline. The ECU detects the pinging and retards ignition timing.

Aside from the sound, how does the engine run?

Yes, our ignition system is of a waste spark design. Both sparks happen just before top dead center, though.

The crank pulley is supposed to be keyed, but it is possible to damage the key.

You don't need to jump the green connectors to check timing.

Reading the timing with a scantool will tell you when the ECU thinks it's sparking. Reading it with a timing light should tell you when it actually is.

[Brice k]

yah it's definatly pre ignition.

I'm a boosthead, so is my brother that owned this car before me.

He has run over 15 psi on these subaru motors before.
We know what detenation sounds like.
I'm new to these engines but learning.


The engine runs great onder little/no load.

When I give a little bit too much throttle I hear very faint and low # of times per second pinging. Under this condition the motor runs pretty good. The power is still there, the engine is fairly smooth.

When I give just a little more throttle the pinging gets louder and more pings per second. Under this condition engine vibrates looses power misses.


Ive got new v-powers/wires, aftermarket pump, fule pressure is not going up with boost, but I have the base set @45psi. I've cranked it all the way up to 55 with no change.
Engine has great compression
new knock sensor
new engine coolant temp sender
have tried 2 diffrent MAF's
TPS voltage may be off a little but resistance changes smoothly and it idles fine
No CEL's

Maybe the MAP sensor is not showing boost but not throwing a code because voltage is still withen range?

I'll check
MAP
TPS
MAF

But I'd like to find out waht up wit timing @ idle.
It's quite posible I diddn't check it properly, But I don't know what to do diffrently other than try again without diagnostic clip jumbed.

But why would the timing read the same no matter which plug wire I used????????????????????

Thanks

Brice

[vrg3]

Wait, how do you know it's preignition in particular?

I don't understand why you're doing what you're doing with fuel pressure, but it strikes me as a likely cause (or contributor) to your problem.

The stock setup is for fuel pressure to stay about 36 psi above manifold pressure. This means that the injectors flow about 370cc/min at all times.

What you have set up makes injector flow vary with manifold pressure. That is, at low load the injectors flow more, and at high load the injectors flow less. In fact, at idle, your injectors flow a whopping 450 cc/min, but at full stock boost they actually flow only about 370 cc/min (as they are supposed to).

So, you let your car idle. The ECU sees feedback from the oxygen sensor telling it it's running too rich, so it starts trimming fuel. As it reaches its maximum enleanment, which is about -20%, it actually arrives at a mixture which is approximately correct.

But then you start to go on load, and suddenly 20% less fuel is way too little! You're running super lean, combustion temperatures go up, and you knock.

Maybe?

In any case, it makes no sense to continue trying to troubleshoot without putting fuel pressure back to stock.

I still don't understand how all four plug wires could give you the same timing reading. It bothers me too.

[Brice k]

I fixed the pinging problem!!

It turns out it WAS a faulty coil.

The coil must have been leaking voltage to the wrong leads.

I swaped a junkyard coil on and the problem went away.


I guess a voltage leak would also explain the wacky timing readings.

Thanks for the help.

[vrg3]

Wow, huh. I don't fully understand how that would work (I still kind of suspect it was just misfire), but I'm glad you solved the problem!