The glory that is flat...

rallysam · Post by **rallysam** » Fri May 05, 2006 4:01 pm

BAC5.2 wrote:What about it?

Downshifting works the same way. Just revmatch and shove it into gear without the clutch.

Ask RallySam. I was doing 20mph clutchless downshifts into 1st gear yesterday.

It was neat

Phil's car is rediculous! I won't try to describe it, but it was pretty sick.

Kelly · Post by **Kelly** » Fri May 05, 2006 4:07 pm

BAC5.2 wrote:
Ask RallySam. I was doing 20mph clutchless downshifts into 1st gear yesterday.

It was neat

Autocross master.

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Fri May 05, 2006 5:21 pm

I can't wait to see it! You better bring it to STPR Phil!

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Sat May 06, 2006 2:28 am

Do you have an exceptionally light flywheel/clutch/press then? I have to wait for the engine to spin down between shifts with an ACT setup.

Sounds cool as hell though.

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Sat May 06, 2006 4:03 am

He has the LW Exedy FW and stage 1 clutch.

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Sat May 06, 2006 4:58 am

Hmm, I dunno, doesn't sound that light. Maybe I'm not understanding how this is faster. Someone should explain it to me.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Sat May 06, 2006 10:08 pm

It's faster because I don't have to wait for the shafts to match speed. Just bang it into gear.

You saw the video. Shifting at WOT, without the clutch. The engine doesn't spin down until it violently changes speeds when I slam it into the next gear.

Where there was .3 seconds worth of shifting, I now am down to .1 seconds of shifting.

Like I said, it's almost constant acceleration. No dip in acceleration when shifting like with a synchro transmission.

Imagine hitting the rev limiter. That 'bounce' you feel? That's what it's like when shifting, but it only happens once and I continue to accelerate for another 50mph after the bounce.

It's outrageously fun.

Flywheel is 14lbs, but what does flywheel weight have to do with anything? The clutch never disengages.

dzx · Post by **dzx** » Sat May 06, 2006 11:02 pm

I had to flat shift home twice after snapping my clutch cable at work and then again on a random street. It's useful, but a pain in the ass when you're pulling up on a red light and you have to get it started again lol.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Sun May 07, 2006 4:39 pm

If you snapped the clutch cable, why not shut off the car at the light? Put the car in first, push in the clutch (which won't do anything but allow the car to start) and get the car rolling off of the starter?

It works. A guy with one of our helical dogboxes did this at the track when he blew his clutch line apart. Only Subaru in history to run an 18 second 1/4 mile at 120mph.

Try to shift a synchro transmission without the clutch. It can be tricky. With a dogbox, if you yank the shifter back, you go into gear. Period.

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Mon May 08, 2006 7:33 pm

I still don't get it. You're changing the ratios in the tranny which is going to cause a difference in the engine speed, how is the engine spinning down so fast? Is the driven shaft forcing the speed down?

Driving without a clutch is fun

.

jamal · Post by **jamal** » Mon May 08, 2006 11:19 pm

THAWA wrote:Is the driven shaft forcing the speed down?

Driving without a clutch is fun .

yes.

With a regular non-syncronised transmission such as what is in a semi, it doesn't go into gear unless things are matched up. The dogs on Phil's transmission are designed to put up with being forced in.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Tue May 09, 2006 12:33 am

THAWA wrote:I still don't get it. You're changing the ratios in the tranny which is going to cause a difference in the engine speed, how is the engine spinning down so fast? Is the driven shaft forcing the speed down?

Driving without a clutch is fun .

Yes. The input shaft almost instantly changes speed when 2nd gear is engaged. As such, the engine RPM almost instantly changes.

Did you watch the video? It explains it in a quick, .1 second, CLACK.

I'll take a video with the camera on the tach needle at some point in the near future.

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Tue May 09, 2006 1:20 am

Yeah, I watched the video, but based on the sound it sounds like I shift that fast. Now I understadn though, cool shit.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Tue May 09, 2006 1:30 am

It's all about my legs. You can see my leg come off the gas and go back on. I'm out of first gear and into second gear before my leg goes back down on the gas.

No clutch use at all.

It would be impossible to shift a synchronized transmission this fast.

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Tue May 09, 2006 1:34 am

I'm just going by what I hear from the vid. Maybe the sound is messed up or something, but there's a long pause between the shift.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Tue May 09, 2006 1:39 am

The video doesn't seem messed up to me.

You can see the lever in 1st, then almost no time later, you hear it clack into 2nd. The noise a bit afterwards is trans noise and engine noise up top. Second gear isn't straight cut.

I did talk to a friend who was behind me, and he said the car jumped sideways on the shift.

Legacy Rally Guy · Post by **Legacy Rally Guy** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:11 am

Let's assume that I've nothing better to do than spend my money on my 91 SS... HAHA, I dont actually, anywho.. how much would a full dog buildup cost?

>>Must acquire .1 sec shift time... **continues drooling like Homer**<<

--STill downloading Quicktime updates...--

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:10 pm

It's a bit expensive. Your looking at almost $7000 if you send us a working trans to get a dog box built.

The trans from my car is for sale though. PM me.

Radial GT1 · Post by **Radial GT1** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:41 am

By the looks of your vid, if you shifted mad quick like some pros, using the clutch and the gas correctly you could get the same effect.

And 7K is a bit more than even the most pimpin version of my car could even be worth.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:09 pm

You could never get the same effect by using the clutch. I've driven fast in enough cars to know that it's almost impossible to shift a synchro transmission that fast. And there is no point to shifting a dogbox with a clutch.

I don't think you fully realize what is going on when you shift like that. Before the gas pedal is all the way back, I am already in the next gear. That is, before the throttle plate is closed, already in the next gear.

I need a better video than a cell-phone can provide.

wiscon_mark · Post by **wiscon_mark** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:40 pm

That is some insanely cool stuff, Phil

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The glory that is flat...