scan tool would be badass too.
air/fuel and timing control (1.8 ECU tuning session!)
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Project_Legacy
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yea that sounds like a pretty good setup. i was thinkin of doing the same thing, but would rather go with the emanage for an all together package. spending would be pretty much about the same price. what is the vortech fmu for? is that fuel management unit? what would you need that for if you have the S-AFC? anyway, let me know how it goes with that setup.
scan tool would be badass too.
scan tool would be badass too.
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vrg3
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If you're planning on tuning, you should be using a wideband oxygen sensor in my opinion.
Narrow-band sensors like the stock one can basically tell you whether the mixture is richer or leaner than stoichiometric, but cannot reliably tell you very much more. Ghetto "air/fuel ratio gauges" are a misnomer (they'd be more accurately called "rich/lean indicators" and are at best a very basic diagnostic tool.
Wideband sensors are much more expensive and complicated, but they can tell you an actual ratio. You need a control unit to run the sensor -- if you stick one in an exhaust stream without the control unit it will kill it -- so the sensors and control units are usually sold together, along with a display that shows what the reading is. Usually the control unit also generates a synthetic narrow-band signal that you can connect to the stock ECU; that allows you to replace the stock sensor with a wideband.
Yes, the SafeGuard is basically a sophisticated but simple-to-use ignition timing piggyback. Its primary purpose is to improve upon the stock ECU's ability to detect knock and retard timing because of it, but it can also pre-emptively retard timing based on boost or whatever.
Project_Legacy - You always need something to handle fuel when you install a turbo. Low boost or high boost. It doesn't matter. Stock will not work. Bigger injectors or higher fuel pressure plus an AFC can work. But so can an RRFPR plus a big fuel pump. I was suggesting a SafeGuard and an RRFPR.
my3awds - You shouldn't need a $20 boost controller if you're planning on running low boost. If anything, you'll probably have to modify the wastegate actuator to bring boost down to 3-5 psi.
I don't think spending $120 on a Knock Lite and then $100-$200 on an S-ITC is worthwhile. That's about what a SafeGuard costs. Although I guess if you're planning on using an S-AFC you might want more precise control over timing than a SafeGuard provides.
The Vortech FMU is an RRFPR. In fact, I'm using a Vortech FMU on one of my cars right now. I made a little restrictor/bleed setup so I can adjust the signal it receives, which is how I can tune how much extra fuel it provides. But anyway, the Walbro pump and an appropriate FMU might be able to provide decent fueling even with the stock injectors; this could be verified using the wideband.
I won't accept money for my scan tool work.
But wait, why again are neither of you willing to use an EJ22T ECU with your EJ22T engines?
Narrow-band sensors like the stock one can basically tell you whether the mixture is richer or leaner than stoichiometric, but cannot reliably tell you very much more. Ghetto "air/fuel ratio gauges" are a misnomer (they'd be more accurately called "rich/lean indicators" and are at best a very basic diagnostic tool.
Wideband sensors are much more expensive and complicated, but they can tell you an actual ratio. You need a control unit to run the sensor -- if you stick one in an exhaust stream without the control unit it will kill it -- so the sensors and control units are usually sold together, along with a display that shows what the reading is. Usually the control unit also generates a synthetic narrow-band signal that you can connect to the stock ECU; that allows you to replace the stock sensor with a wideband.
Yes, the SafeGuard is basically a sophisticated but simple-to-use ignition timing piggyback. Its primary purpose is to improve upon the stock ECU's ability to detect knock and retard timing because of it, but it can also pre-emptively retard timing based on boost or whatever.
Project_Legacy - You always need something to handle fuel when you install a turbo. Low boost or high boost. It doesn't matter. Stock will not work. Bigger injectors or higher fuel pressure plus an AFC can work. But so can an RRFPR plus a big fuel pump. I was suggesting a SafeGuard and an RRFPR.
my3awds - You shouldn't need a $20 boost controller if you're planning on running low boost. If anything, you'll probably have to modify the wastegate actuator to bring boost down to 3-5 psi.
I don't think spending $120 on a Knock Lite and then $100-$200 on an S-ITC is worthwhile. That's about what a SafeGuard costs. Although I guess if you're planning on using an S-AFC you might want more precise control over timing than a SafeGuard provides.
The Vortech FMU is an RRFPR. In fact, I'm using a Vortech FMU on one of my cars right now. I made a little restrictor/bleed setup so I can adjust the signal it receives, which is how I can tune how much extra fuel it provides. But anyway, the Walbro pump and an appropriate FMU might be able to provide decent fueling even with the stock injectors; this could be verified using the wideband.
I won't accept money for my scan tool work.
But wait, why again are neither of you willing to use an EJ22T ECU with your EJ22T engines?
"Just reading vrg3's convoluted, information-packed posts made me feel better all over again." -- subyluvr2212
Unfortunatly the ej18 doesn't come with a stock knock sensor, so it probably doesn't have any form of timing retard calculations set in the 1.8 ecu like it does in the 2.2t ecu. So the only use left for the SafeGuard would be the ignition control (and boost retard if it can do that independantly of the ECU), which (besides the boost retard) a ITC can do just fine, right? And being able to visually see when the knock sensor detects knock would provide useful I would think. So spending $220-320 for the lite and itc I think isn't a bad price for the purpose that I need them for (vs. $500 for the J&S + $75 for the bosch sensor since the 1.8 doesn't come with one).vrg3 wrote:I don't think spending $120 on a Knock Lite and then $100-$200 on an S-ITC is worthwhile. That's about what a SafeGuard costs. Although I guess if you're planning on using an S-AFC you might want more precise control over timing than a SafeGuard provides.
I'm sorry, I should have clarified. I meant to get the boost controller for future use, not for the sole purpose of lowering pressure. That list was just to show the ability of being able to control all the things I need (air, fuel, timing, boost) in a somewhat cost effective way (lol) over the course of time. But you're right, the wastegate actuator is probably a 9-10psi wastegate stock?vrg3 wrote:my3awds - You shouldn't need a $20 boost controller if you're planning on running low boost. If anything, you'll probably have to modify the wastegate actuator to bring boost down to 3-5 psi.
Yeah, that would be nice. I guess I could find out after I install the wideband and before I switch injectors. I just don't want to chance it if this 2.2t normally came with a larger set of injectors on stock 8-9psi boost (and possibly a larger fpr?). But since I'll have a bunch of devices by that point, I can see what works best lol.vrg3 wrote:...the Walbro pump and an appropriate FMU might be able to provide decent fueling even with the stock injectors; this could be verified using the wideband.
Well I figure I would need to have timing, air, boost, and fuel control for the car anyway if I ever upgrade (dohc, 16g, 550cc,etc). It would be a waste of time and money to spend the $300-$400+ if you are going to alter the stock maps and settings anyway, right? I don't think it'll be that difficult to get the car 'close' to the drivability of a 2.2t ecu.vrg3 wrote:But wait, why again are neither of you willing to use an EJ22T ECU with your EJ22T engines?
Thats a shame! I don't see how you can put all the time and effort into something and be satisfied with the simple thread replies of "thanks!". Not that I'm complaining, but I'm just saying if someone wanted to show their graditude for all your hard work with a little $$$ contribution (and I'm sure more people then myself here would be willing to do so), why not? I guess this is besides the thread-point so I'll skip it...but if your scantool ever supports the impreza usdm 1.8ecu...I'll be asking for your paypal address...or at least your mailing address to send you a 6pack!vrg3 wrote:I won't accept money for my scan tool work.
Thanks for the help, I'll be sure and post progress in my thread in the Pictures section if anyone cares. (Sorry for the whoring again
)Subaru Impreza Ver6 replica with Ver4 Type R motorset.
Mitsubishi Evolution 4 replica with Evo4 GSR motorset.
Mitsubishi Evolution 4 replica with Evo4 GSR motorset.
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Project_Legacy
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id love to see your progress bro!
vrg3, the reason i am not going to be using the ej22t ecu is because i dont want to have to change up the harness. IMO, its just too much work. it would probably cost a lot less, but then again, with this setup, i would be able to switch back to 1.8 motor pretty easily also, if i needed to for some reason. also, this isnt just an ej22t im building. its gonna be a total frankenstein.
so, you are saying, i COULD get away with using a narrowband air/fuel ratio? i wouldnt mind using that for awhile since it would cost like $50 bucks for now. all i just want to do with it, is make sure i have enough fuel up top, and pull fuel down low at idle. eventually i will go to a wideband for sure, and yea im sure eventually i will upgrade turbos and injectors as well.
i mean, why would i build this sexy frankenstein motor for a vf10????
vrg3, the reason i am not going to be using the ej22t ecu is because i dont want to have to change up the harness. IMO, its just too much work. it would probably cost a lot less, but then again, with this setup, i would be able to switch back to 1.8 motor pretty easily also, if i needed to for some reason. also, this isnt just an ej22t im building. its gonna be a total frankenstein.
so, you are saying, i COULD get away with using a narrowband air/fuel ratio? i wouldnt mind using that for awhile since it would cost like $50 bucks for now. all i just want to do with it, is make sure i have enough fuel up top, and pull fuel down low at idle. eventually i will go to a wideband for sure, and yea im sure eventually i will upgrade turbos and injectors as well.
i mean, why would i build this sexy frankenstein motor for a vf10????
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vrg3
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my3awds - Oh, yeah, you have no knock sensor. In that case, buy the SafeGuard!
Do you understand what the SafeGuard will let you do? You can get a stock EJ22/EJ22T knock sensor (if your engine doesn't already have one), install it on the EJ22T block, and connect it to the SafeGuard configured properly. Then you will have all these nice things happening:
- The SafeGuard will retard timing as boost builds, to proactively prevent knock.
- The SafeGuard will retard timing on knock on a per cylinder basis, reactively reducing knock.
- Its monitor will light up LEDs to tell you that knock is happening and that timing correction is being applied (and even give you an idea how much), so you can adjust the settings for the above to further proactively prevent knock.
The monitor and the proactive retard will accomplish roughly what you'd accomplish with the ITC and Knock Lite, and you also get the whole feedback deal. You aren't honestly willing to leave your engine with no automated knock protection at all, are you?
You also understand, right, that a boost controller can't reduce boost? It can only increase it. As for wastegate actuator calibration, it varies by turbo model. A stock EJ22T turbo's is calibrated to about 6 psi. A new age WRX's turbo is set to arond 9 psi. A Dodge Cummins Diesel turbo is set to around 18 psi!
If you're trying to plan things for long-term flexibility and high ultimate power, though, just bite the bullet and get a proper standalone aftermarket ECU. You'll actually get more power and efficiency that way.
As for the scan tool, it was something I did/do just to help out. It's not just selfless though -- I wrote it first just because I wanted a scantool that was backlit unlike the Select Monitor. Also, there are selfish reasons for not wanting money for it, like not wanting to be obligated to work on it. If it helps you out, then you can pass the favor on by helping someone else when you have the chance.
Project_Legacy - But wiring in a bunch of piggybacks is a lot of work too. And if you make a plug-and-play adapter harness, you can do most of the work indoors where you can work comfortably and carefully, and you still have the option of going back to stock with only a few minutes' work.
I don't know what kind of Frankenstein you're talking about, so I can't say too much about it, but even if you're exceeding the EJ22T's stock engine management's capabilities it still might be nice to start at that higher level.
No, I'm saying that in my opinion you cannot get away with a narrowband sensor for tuning. It will not be able to tell you whether or not you have enough fuel at the top end.
Do you understand what the SafeGuard will let you do? You can get a stock EJ22/EJ22T knock sensor (if your engine doesn't already have one), install it on the EJ22T block, and connect it to the SafeGuard configured properly. Then you will have all these nice things happening:
- The SafeGuard will retard timing as boost builds, to proactively prevent knock.
- The SafeGuard will retard timing on knock on a per cylinder basis, reactively reducing knock.
- Its monitor will light up LEDs to tell you that knock is happening and that timing correction is being applied (and even give you an idea how much), so you can adjust the settings for the above to further proactively prevent knock.
The monitor and the proactive retard will accomplish roughly what you'd accomplish with the ITC and Knock Lite, and you also get the whole feedback deal. You aren't honestly willing to leave your engine with no automated knock protection at all, are you?
You also understand, right, that a boost controller can't reduce boost? It can only increase it. As for wastegate actuator calibration, it varies by turbo model. A stock EJ22T turbo's is calibrated to about 6 psi. A new age WRX's turbo is set to arond 9 psi. A Dodge Cummins Diesel turbo is set to around 18 psi!
If you're trying to plan things for long-term flexibility and high ultimate power, though, just bite the bullet and get a proper standalone aftermarket ECU. You'll actually get more power and efficiency that way.
As for the scan tool, it was something I did/do just to help out. It's not just selfless though -- I wrote it first just because I wanted a scantool that was backlit unlike the Select Monitor. Also, there are selfish reasons for not wanting money for it, like not wanting to be obligated to work on it. If it helps you out, then you can pass the favor on by helping someone else when you have the chance.
Project_Legacy - But wiring in a bunch of piggybacks is a lot of work too. And if you make a plug-and-play adapter harness, you can do most of the work indoors where you can work comfortably and carefully, and you still have the option of going back to stock with only a few minutes' work.
I don't know what kind of Frankenstein you're talking about, so I can't say too much about it, but even if you're exceeding the EJ22T's stock engine management's capabilities it still might be nice to start at that higher level.
No, I'm saying that in my opinion you cannot get away with a narrowband sensor for tuning. It will not be able to tell you whether or not you have enough fuel at the top end.
"Just reading vrg3's convoluted, information-packed posts made me feel better all over again." -- subyluvr2212
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Project_Legacy
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well i will only be using one piggyback, the emanage. i believe the only other thing that would be connected, would be the wideband o2. so, only two things. i also just want to use the emanage instead, because i will be able to have a lot of control, from just one piggyback unit. on top of that, once i do go bigger injectors/turbo, i will still be able to use that emanage to tune that set up as well.
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vrg3
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Ah. Yeah, I guess the e-Manage gives you a lot of adjustability. You will need bigger injectors or higher fuel pressure right off the bat.
Good luck with it, and be sure to let us know how it goes.
Good luck with it, and be sure to let us know how it goes.
"Just reading vrg3's convoluted, information-packed posts made me feel better all over again." -- subyluvr2212
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Project_Legacy
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Project_Legacy
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i have been playing with the emanage software, just a little bit on my PC, (dont have the unit yet, comes in tomorrow!! 
) and i was wondering about how much fueling i would need to pull back for idle. it seems that the stock 1.8 injectors are 220cc's. the difference between that and the 370cc's i believe is roughly 40%. so in turn, i was going to trim the fuel about 40% for idle.
then i realized it probably would run lean because the 2.2 is bigger than the 1.8. i was trying to figure out some math to see the difference between the two, and i got roughly 18%. meaning, the 2.2L is 18% bigger than the 1.8L. does that sound ok?? anyone know how i would adjust for an 18% increase in displacement? i was gonna say, 18% more fuel, so instead of trimming 40%, it would be 22%?? that doesnt sound right... anyone have an idea? would be much appreciated!
) and i was wondering about how much fueling i would need to pull back for idle. it seems that the stock 1.8 injectors are 220cc's. the difference between that and the 370cc's i believe is roughly 40%. so in turn, i was going to trim the fuel about 40% for idle. then i realized it probably would run lean because the 2.2 is bigger than the 1.8. i was trying to figure out some math to see the difference between the two, and i got roughly 18%. meaning, the 2.2L is 18% bigger than the 1.8L. does that sound ok?? anyone know how i would adjust for an 18% increase in displacement? i was gonna say, 18% more fuel, so instead of trimming 40%, it would be 22%?? that doesnt sound right... anyone have an idea? would be much appreciated!
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Idle is actually pretty easy if you have the scan tool. Just keep pulling fuel back until the fuel correction on the scan tool get's to +/- 1%
Josh
surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT
If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT
If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
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Project_Legacy
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josh, i have no scan tool for the 1.8... 
so i guess ill be going with the wideband o2 to monitor that.
if you say so vrg3. it just seems to me that there would be an issue. but then again, i dont know much about any of that. with that said, how much should i trim to get to normal idling? trim to the ideal level of the 1.8 ecu/MAF sensor, meaning the 40% i said above? that sounds like thats what i should do.
thanks for the input guys!
so i guess ill be going with the wideband o2 to monitor that. if you say so vrg3. it just seems to me that there would be an issue. but then again, i dont know much about any of that. with that said, how much should i trim to get to normal idling? trim to the ideal level of the 1.8 ecu/MAF sensor, meaning the 40% i said above? that sounds like thats what i should do.
thanks for the input guys!
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vrg3
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Without a scantool and without a wideband oxygen sensor, you can't very well do a precise tune of your idle.
I have no personal experience with what you're about to do. However, if I were to do it, this is probably what I would try to do:
Start with a -30% fuel adjustment in all the low-RPM and low-load bins.
Disconnect the oxygen sensor from the ECU. Connect a voltmeter to its signal line and watch the signal.
Start the engine and let it idle however badly it does until it's warmed up.
Monitor the oxygen sensor voltage. If it is above about half a volt, decrease fuel until it is below half a volt (it will stay well above and then suddenly move below). If it is below about half a volt, increase fuel until it is above. The magic number that makes it switch from above to below or vice versa is about where you want your idle fuel settings to be.
I have no personal experience with what you're about to do. However, if I were to do it, this is probably what I would try to do:
Start with a -30% fuel adjustment in all the low-RPM and low-load bins.
Disconnect the oxygen sensor from the ECU. Connect a voltmeter to its signal line and watch the signal.
Start the engine and let it idle however badly it does until it's warmed up.
Monitor the oxygen sensor voltage. If it is above about half a volt, decrease fuel until it is below half a volt (it will stay well above and then suddenly move below). If it is below about half a volt, increase fuel until it is above. The magic number that makes it switch from above to below or vice versa is about where you want your idle fuel settings to be.
"Just reading vrg3's convoluted, information-packed posts made me feel better all over again." -- subyluvr2212
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Project_Legacy
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