New pics

Project_Legacy · Post by **Project_Legacy** » Thu May 25, 2006 7:57 am

that is a very clean exhaust. i like it!

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Thu May 25, 2006 8:00 am

The midpipe and axleback are still in development, but the downpipe and racepipe are currently available. Buy crucial and your car becomes sexy, I swear.

I want them to make a twintip version though

Post by **Legacy777** » Fri May 26, 2006 7:17 pm

Cool!

Yeah I'm just going to have to get in there and man-handle it.

I wish I could've gotten a twin tip setup from CES as well. I like it better.

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Sat May 27, 2006 3:51 am

If the CES was a direct fit without issues, I wouldn't mind the single tip.

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Sat May 27, 2006 4:24 am

My CES was/is a direct fit with zero issues. Not sure why some of the others (but again, not all) have had some rubbing issues....

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Sat May 27, 2006 5:21 am

I dont know why either, and I dont want to waste the time.

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Sat May 27, 2006 1:38 pm

I know why....These cars were never designed to have a big 3" exhaust on them. If they aren't just right, then they can rub.

That Crucial system looks nice, are you 100% sure it won't rub?

Post by **Legacy777** » Sat May 27, 2006 3:57 pm

John Hartly sent me pics of his CES system. He's got it on his 91 turbo. He had issues at the trans crossmember, but didn't have issues at the driveline area I am having. It looks like his mid-pipe is lower then mine.

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com:8 ... nhces1.jpg
http://www.main.experiencetherave.com:8 ... nhces2.jpg
http://www.main.experiencetherave.com:8 ... nhces3.jpg

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Sun May 28, 2006 1:31 am

I have a 3" exhaust and nothing rubs or scrapes, you have one as well and it doesn't rub or scrape, so it can be done. CES just needs to do more R&D.

And that Crucial setup wont fit on directly, it's Impreza fitament, so something needs extending. But yeah, those pipes with dents are made so they clear the center bearing.

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Sun May 28, 2006 2:40 am

Like I said, they need to be just right.

Mine's CES and doesn't rub. I don't think it's fair to say that CES needs to do more R&D. I've had two systems from them and neither one rubbed.

The CES Legacy systems were also designed to be on Liberty RS's originaly so that could account for some of the problems too. RHD and different engines, DOHC ect..., could cause the turbos to sit slightly different then on the USDM Legacy SS and TW.

When I switched to my 16G, the exhaust hung slightly different then it did before with my VF11.

I know a local guy that owns a Mieneke (SP?) and he was talking to me one time about how he's never had a prebuilt large aftermarket exhaust go on without at least some tweaking. Every car has it's own little nuances to it. It's like body parts, like fenders, they hardly ever match up just the way the factory ones did that you might be replacing. Know what I mean?

What brand is your existing exhaust? Custom?

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Sun May 28, 2006 3:03 am

If it doesn't fit without hitting something, it doesn't fit. You either need to spend more time modifying your product for proper fitament, or not market it as fitting. It's a fact that it's not a bolt on for the majority of cars, it should be marketed as such.

The areas where the CES is having issues isn't a RHD problem, or anything like that. If it had issues with the steering rack/lines, or AC lines, or something then yeah, I could see that, but this is a different issue.

My setup is mentioned in here somewhere: http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=26492

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Sun May 28, 2006 5:16 am

I'm not trying to get in a pissing contest with you about it Hardy, I just don't think it's as cut and dry "they don't fit" as you are always trying to make them out to be.

I will say again, I have had two CES systems and neither one rubbed.

I will admit that the first system was a modified WRX system though, so I had the hangers redone.

I don't remember Trevor ever "marketing" or saying that they were a perfect fit, zero issue system though, do you? They were marketed as "bolt on" by MSR-USA but Trevor (CES) has never made any such claims about perfect fitment. If anything, he has always said that there could be slight issues and that the system was designed for the Liberty RS and not for the SS or TW.

If you want to blame or point fingures at anyone when it comes to the claim (marketing) of them fitting wonderfully, blame me. Mine does fit wonderfully and I stand by that initial claim too. Obviously since then we've seen tha tthere can be issues though.

I'm the first car in all of North America to run the CES systems and they would have never even offered the L-RS system here if I hadn't been the one pushing for it. They weren't looking to break into the 1st gen Legacy turbo market in the US. I pushed them to offer it and Trevor has never even seen or worked on a USDM Legacy turbo. Look at his website, it doesn't even list a system for our cars, only the RS.

Most of the people running the CES systems have had very minor, if any, fitment issues and were extremely satisfied with the product. Josh seems to be one of the only ones that really doesn't like the system and regrets the purchase, as least that I know of. I feel bad about that too because I feel partly responsible for it because I think my glowing reviews are a major reason that most of the people, including Josh, have bought the CES systems.

Again, sorry Josh.

About the RHD, I wasn't really saying that the RHD would be the cause of the actual fitment issue itself, I was just getting at the point that the system was designed on a different model. If anything, I think that the turbo setup might sit a bit different on the EJ20G and that that could cause some issues. Also, like I said before, every car has it's own nuances to it. Things don't fit the exact same way from car to car and when the tolerances are as tight as they are on these cars when runninga 3" system, you are bound to have some issues.

Unless you have personally worked on a L-RS and microned the whole thing to check for tolerances or whatever then you can't say that the L-RS exhaust don't hang slightly different because of the difference in setup compared to the L-SS/TW, right?

IIRC Joshs issue was between 1/4" and an 1/8" of clearence. That's something that could easily be attributed to the difference in setup between the Australian and USDM cars.

WRX owners that are putting "bolt on" aftermarket systems on can and do sometimes run into rubbing issues too. It's just a fact of life.

Most of the people on this board, or any other board for that matter, that are putting a 3" exhaust on their SS or TW are either modifying a WRX system or are going custom. If you do that then you are either changing the existing hangers or doing custom hangers as well as custom piping. They are obviously not going to have the same issue.

You seem all gung-ho about these crucial systems and I admit they look nice but they need totally reworked to even go on the car since they are WRX systems. So any possible fitment issue there would be fixed when you hang it, so you wouldn't even need the flat spot then because you could hang it so it didn't rub in the first place.

All the flat spot is is a restriction, you only flow as well as your smallest point so why have a 3" system with a crush point in it that makes the system 2.75" or something. Run a 2.75" cat back and you wouldn't have the rubbing issue to begin with....

Sorry to hi-jack the thread Josh.

I would like to hear your responce Hardy but after that I think we should just start a new thread in the exhaust forum to continue any further discussion on fitment. I like the discussion though.

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Sun May 28, 2006 6:17 am

Don't worry, I'm not trying to really get into argueing. I wasn't going to reply to this post actually, because you answered some of my questions, but since you asked, and I've got nothin but love for ya

.

I'm not saying the CES is a bad product. I've never said that I don't think. It's a great setup, it just needs some issues fixed for US cars.

If a WRX system is "bolt-on" and it causes rubbing, then it needs more R&D time to fix the issues.

Also, you could use the crucial setup with the stock catpipe if you use the crucial midpipe that tapers to a donut gasket (you can actually get away with the full 3" midpipe but the gasket may or maynot seal completely as one end is for a flat gasket, and the other is for a donut), and then use a WRX axleback. The hangers still all line up well enough, so there's no need for rewelding. It's still not bolt-on. Never said it was, I just have a hard-on for Crucial.

The flat spot really isn't that much of a concern as the majority of people aren't even making enough exhaust to warrant a full 3" system. But I agree with you, rework the design to fit better with a 3" system.

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Sun May 28, 2006 1:05 pm

Right-O.

Oh, and I think I might order some of Crucials CU 3", flat 2-bolt flange, exhaust gaskets. Those look pimp!

Post by **Legacy777** » Sun May 28, 2006 5:04 pm

I don't know if I necessarily regret buying the CES, but it has been nothing but a complete pain in the ass.

I'm more dissapointed with the treatment I got from CES as a company and completely blowing me off to request a refund from Fedex for my shipping charges when Fedex completely botched things up, as well as their lack of replying to my emails when I was trying to resolve my fitment issues.

Because of those issues, I will never buy anything from them again.

The quality of the CES system is supurb, and I am happy with the performance from it......but and I've mentioned this before. It may be the best performing exhaust, but if it doesn't fit....who cares.

I think I'm going to wait to "permanently" modify anything until after I get my new turbo on....because as it was said....things may sit differently.

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Sun May 28, 2006 5:41 pm

If you get those gaskets, make sure you heat cycle and retighten the nuts/bolts. Or you might lose your nuts!

Yukonart · Post by **Yukonart** » Sun May 28, 2006 7:32 pm

THAWA wrote: Or you might lose your nuts!

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Sun May 28, 2006 11:10 pm

You wouldn't be laughing if you looked at your "downpipe" and there were no nuts under it!

Yukonart · Post by **Yukonart** » Mon May 29, 2006 8:53 am

THAWA wrote:You wouldn't be laughing if you looked at your "downpipe" and there were no nuts under it!

Indeed. . . that's why I always keep track of my nuts when my own downpipe is concerned.

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Mon May 29, 2006 2:41 pm

Yukonart wrote:
THAWA wrote:You wouldn't be laughing if you looked at your "downpipe" and there were no nuts under it!
Indeed. . . that's why I always keep track of my nuts when my own downpipe is concerned.

LMAO!!!

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New pics