94 Legacy wagon - cold start , no power from complete stop

Invisiblecity · Post by **Invisiblecity** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 2:46 am

Hello Everyone,

I'm new to Subarus and to this board. In June of this year I bought a 94 Subaru Legacy wagon, 2.2 auto. It ran beautifully during the summer. Then, one cold, rainy morning a couple of weeks ago it took two tries to start. Not that big of a deal,or so I thought. It then began to idle rough (like 300rpm) and even worse - whenever I started from a complete stop the car would not move. It doesn't seem as if it's stalling or about to die. It's just that I step on the gas and.........nothing. A funny thing about it is, pressing the accelerator actually makes it roll slower. Anyway, the car is rolling and nothing, nothing, nothing, pedal to the metal, nothing, and then the rpms start revving and the engine quickly comes back to life. When it goes, it goes fine. The cold start troubles, though, are a constant.

I've replaced; plugs, wires, fuel filter, coil (used but tested), MAF, air filter, also cleaned the choke.

It leaks oil in front and rear but I stay on top of it with timely changes and checks.

CEL came on periodically before (not at all anymore). When I got them it was always after starting the car whenever I had just been driving it. I'd like to read the codes but I'm taking it to the mechanics on Thursday.

My dad is a mechanic and said it's the o2 sensor. Would the o2 sensor sieze the car only after starting from a complete stop? If so, why?

Thank you to anyone who can offer some help.

Post by **Legacy777** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:10 pm

Check the ECU for stored codes. The procedure & code listing is on my site

www.surrealmirage.com/subaru/engine.html

I would recommend replacing your coolant temp sensor. They're about $20 from the online subaru dealers.
www.subarugenuineparts.com

Invisiblecity · Post by **Invisiblecity** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:56 pm

Hi Josh,

Thanks for your reply. Also, thanks for the link.

So, I read the info on your site regarding ecu codes. I went out to my car, hooked up the two black connectors and turned the key. My CEL flashed continuosly and evenly for a while. They were quick flashes. I just turned the key back and disconnected the clips.

What does that mean?

Manarius · Post by **Manarius** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:37 am

You have to count the flashes...it's a fairly simple process. You just watch the pattern for a few seconds, you'll get it eventually.

Invisiblecity · Post by **Invisiblecity** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:15 am

I understand about the counting - longer sustained flash for tens, short flash for ones.
I'm saying that mine just blinks - the same short blink - forever. I counted 75 single, equally as long blinks. No difference, no change in length of blinks. I stopped at 75 because it seemingly could have gone to 175 without any break, pause, or change blink length.

I was expecting long ones for tens, short blinks, long ones for breaks, etc....

Manarius · Post by **Manarius** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:57 am

Might be time to reset the ECU (just pull the negative terminal for 45 minutes). Then see what codes it throws.

Post by **Legacy777** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:33 pm

Continuous flashes means there's no code stored in the ECU.

I'd suggest trying the d-check mode to see if anything comes up.

If not, you can try resetting the ECU, and checking it for codes if the CEL displays again.

Invisiblecity · Post by **Invisiblecity** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:02 am

Hey thanks again for responding guys.

So, I realize that I have probably erased the codes when I changed the coil. I removed the negative battery cable.

It's unfortunate now that I don't get the CELs anymore. Maybe I'll get lucky and one will appear.

I just got the car back from the mechanics. They say the only thing that they can think of is the MAF. Since I recently replaced the MAF, they said that the new one must have been faulty. When I told them that I purchased the replacement as a re-manufactured MAF from Autozone, they laughed!!!

Oh well, now I take that back and I guess purchase a 400.00 one from Subaru.

Anyone have a better suggestion?

Thanks again.

Post by **Legacy777** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:19 am

If you're in question about the MAF, but a used one from someone in the parts shed. That should at least tell you whether spending $400, (which by the way is too expensive. Check out www.subarugenuineparts.com for subie parts) is going to fix your issue or not.

Invisiblecity · Post by **Invisiblecity** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:13 pm

Hey,

I got a MAF from a junkyard. They said that it worked on the car they pulled it from. It was only 36$. I took off the Autozone re-manuf and intsalled this one. No change. Regardless of what I do (which primarily has been pull of one MAF and install another; repeat) the problem is getting worse. The loss of power problem is no longer just when going from a complete stop.

My questions are;
Josh, you said Coolant temp sensor. Does this affect the car when it is clearly warmed up? My loss of power can be when I first start driving the car or when I've been driving it for an hour.

Would a failing o2 sensor give me this extreme loss of power?

Can I disconnect the MAF and o2 sensor and then drive as a way of checking these parts?

I have a sensor straight up and down in the front of my intake manifold. I can see it buy looking straight down behind my alternator. It is covered in some sort of oil, grease, brown sauce (kidding). Nothing around it is dirty, Do you know why it alone would be very dirty? I see another sensor going at an angle from the back of intake manifold, that is my coolant temp sensor, no?
I'm sorry, but Haynes' diagrams are shit.

Thanks to anyone who can help with these questions.

Invisiblecity · Post by **Invisiblecity** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:25 am

oh, it's the oil pressure sending unit. hah, that would explain the, uh, oil!

Manarius · Post by **Manarius** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:41 pm

When you replace the MAF, are you resetting the ECU and relearning it properly? That can make a big impact on performance.

Invisiblecity · Post by **Invisiblecity** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:03 pm

Hey Manarius,

I have not done that. How do you re-set and relearn the ECU?
Like I said before, I cleared the codes by mistake when I disconnected the neg cable while installing the new coil.
The Haynes manual (which calls it the ECM - same thing, right?) does not talk specifically about "re-set" and "re-learn".

Thanks, man.

Manarius · Post by **Manarius** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:18 pm

Josh's Website wrote:To completely reset the ECU (TCU as well) you can use one of the following methods. Note: Resetting the ECU does erase the codes in memory. The first method is commonly referred to as the "battery dance". The second method is to remove the EGI/TCU fuse (fuse 14). Both methods essentually do the same thing, the only difference is that the fuse method only works on the first gen legacies, and you don't loose your radio presets. You want to perform both these procedures on a "cold" engine. Leave it sit for a while, or overnight and do it in the morning.

1. Disconnect the negative battery terminal cable for 30-45 minutes. Or pull fuse 14 labeled (EGI/TCU) from the fuse panel at the driver's kick panel for 30-45 minutes.

2. Reconnect the negative battery terminal cable, or re-insert fuse 14.

3. Turn off all your accessories.

4. Start the car, but DO NOT touch the throttle at all.

5. Let the car idle for 10-15 minutes, or until the car is at normal operating temperature. Again, do not touch the throttle.

6. Turn the ignition key to the "OFF" position. That's it

What's above should do it for you.

Post by **Legacy777** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:59 pm

Invisiblecity wrote:My questions are;
Josh, you said Coolant temp sensor. Does this affect the car when it is clearly warmed up? My loss of power can be when I first start driving the car or when I've been driving it for an hour.

The coolant temp sensor is a very vital sensor for the car's fuel enrichment map. If it's providing false data to the ECU, then the car will not run properly. So I'd highly recommend replacing it, if you haven't.

Is your problem/loss of power something that happens intermittently or at certain engine temps/rpms/load/etc?

Invisiblecity · Post by **Invisiblecity** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:19 pm

Yeah, I think I'm definitely going to replace it. I have to wait til Tuesday because of the Holiday.

The loss of power is very severe from a dead stop. If I slow down it seems to come back (so I guess low rpms). Like I said, It's getting worse.
I think there is something to this: from a dead stop and the brake pedal released the car will roll naturally, but when I step on the gas it is like the car seizes, then let off the gas and it will continue to roll. This is the senario that is played out at many a stop light in my hometown.

Why would the car seize when pressing the gas pedal?

Most times now going up a hill is impossible. I live in a very hilly area so this is not good.

BTW, can you tell me what ground connections to look for and clean? I can't beleive Haynes doesn't have a section on this.

Thanks

Post by **Legacy777** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:26 pm

You're more then likely experiencing a "bogging" issue which may be caused by over fueling. The coolant temp senser should help if that's the issue.

Here's all the ground points
http://www.surrealmirage.com/subaru/fil ... tion16.jpg

Invisiblecity · Post by **Invisiblecity** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:41 pm

thanks a bunch.

Invisiblecity · Post by **Invisiblecity** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:00 am

I just changed the coolant temp sensor, checked and cleaned all the grounds I could find. Also, disconnected battery for 45 - 1hr. No luck.

In fact, my 94 is getting much worse. I had to have a neighbor pull me back to my house.

GOOD NEWS:once the car is started the rough idle problem is virtually gone. Maybe that junkyard MAF?

BAD NEWS:pretty much anytime I step on the accelerator (in drive or reverse) I get nothing. The car seizes when gas pedal in pushed, it goes back to normal idle and feel when the gas pedal is let up. I'm sure that it is bogging or flooding with fuel when I give it gas. When I put the car in park and press the gas the engine struggles at low rpms and (pressing gas further down) it normals out as the rpms rise.
I'm getting a lot of white smoke out of the exhaust, what does this mean?
My dad says could be a flat spot in the TPS. I'm checking that tomorrow with a meter. I've read so many posts in this forum in which cars have had similar problems. Where is that magic cure?

Guy who towed me back said EGU?

Invisiblecity · Post by **Invisiblecity** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:44 pm

sorry, the guy who towed me said EGR, not EGU.

Bosco · Post by **Bosco** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:28 pm

got some water in your fuel?
Maybe swap out your injectors for some JY ones?

Maybe say some prayers to the seven sisters of the pleiades?

Post by **Legacy777** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:44 pm

These cars do not have EGR valves.

Invisiblecity · Post by **Invisiblecity** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:33 am

UPDATE:

Crank gear is stripped. Too much play in the crankshaft. Mechanics suggest engine replacement. I declined. G'bye Legacy, hello debt.

Thanks again to everyone who took the time to respond to my crisis.

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94 Legacy wagon - cold start , no power from complete stop

94 Legacy wagon - cold start , no power from complete stop