My Ej22/Ej25 hybrid build thread with lots of questions

gto7419 · Post by **gto7419** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:50 pm

I have pictures of early 2.0 jdm heads that Im buying for my Legacy. I just want to double check and make sure they'll work!!!

Im not sure how to upload the pics here, so im going to host them on my website....

Link Below

http://community.webshots.com/user/gto7419

If someone who knows heads could say "yeah those should work" or "those will not work" I would REALLY REALLY appreciate it!!!

Danny

Matt Monson · Post by **Matt Monson** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:22 pm

Those are '97-98 EJ20K heads. They will work just fine. That manifold was painted by someone other than STi and don't trust the seller if they are trying to tell you that they are STi heads. Who is the seller? How much are they asking?

gto7419 · Post by **gto7419** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:40 am

The seller is a supporting vender on nasioc. He was honest with everything. I was looking for early 2.0 dohc jdm heads and thats what he said these were. I pm'ed you btw...

Will these heads flow as well as the 2.5 usdm dohc heads?

Matt Monson · Post by **Matt Monson** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:47 am

The USDM EJ25D DOHC heads are actually based upon those heads. And that price they gave you is a bit steep. I would only buy them if he accepts your counter offer...

gto7419 · Post by **gto7419** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:54 am

Matt, I appreciate the info

.

Ever get a chance to check out my T3 turbo info?

Matt Monson · Post by **Matt Monson** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:05 am

Saw it but haven't have any time to look into it. Is that a custom trim or is it stock off of something? Have you got any sort fo rating on it like CFM's at certain psi? Otherwise, I need to look through all kinds of boost maps for Garretts until I find the right set up, and then model it. If you have ANY specific info I mention above, it will give us a better idea of what you are working with...

gto7419 · Post by **gto7419** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:30 am

I bought the car from the previous owner with the turbo. I *think* it might be from a volvo.

***Update****
I gave the po a call - he said the turbo was from a mid 80s volvo 740. It was rebuilt before it was reinstalled into the legacy.

Matt Monson · Post by **Matt Monson** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:30 am

This is "officially" your build thread now...

206er · Post by **206er** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:41 am

re adding a larger turbo later, why go to a VF39 later if you already built a T3 setup? plenty of good T3 compatible turbos out there.

gto7419 · Post by **gto7419** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:19 am

To be honest, theres a lot more subaru turbo knowledge on these boards than T3 stuff... I also did not build the T3 setup - the po did. I also have everything but the turbo and a midpipe to convert to a vf series.

I cant find any answers, and this is my first engine build - which is why Im basically trying to copy what others have done....

Similar to my trying to figure out whether or not its worth it to build the stroker or not.... If I cant find any solid info on it, Im not going to do it - I dont want to be a guinea pig when its going to cost me a lot of money down the road, as well as a ton more effort in the long run....

BTW, sorry Matt for the other posts - I realize Im "clogging" up the board.... Just trying to get help

So, if anyone has done a turbo'ed stroker, share your secrets please - what bearings are you using??? How does the ej25 crank and rods effect the the powerband, and how well do the ej25 rods hold up to boost?

Also, I just want to clarify - BEFORE I start to build, that the 95 ej22 shortblock will be plug and play with my ecu and harnesses...

Thanks for all the help and replies!!!

Danny

edit - YAY MY FIRST BUILD THREAD

I think I'll even take pictures!!!

555BCTurbo · Post by **555BCTurbo** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:57 am

As long as the EJ22 from the 95 car is the dual port exhaust type, it should have no problem plugging and playing with your ecu...

As far as the stroker goes, I have gathered that you will need custom pistons, as the longer crank throws cause stock pistons to extend beyond the deck, which is a BIT of a problem, therefore needing a shorter piston, that I believe Wiseco makes for this application...**this however, is what I have heard from a number of engine builders, but I do not know for sure**...

gto7419 · Post by **gto7419** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:37 am

Ok, so custom pistons are definately NOT in my budget.

Do the pistons have to be THAT much shorter? I have ej22t pistons that I thought would work from others' threads, but I dont think anyone stated that for sure.

Im going to be using ej22t cometic head gasket and ej25 dohc heads, so I think I have a little extra room to play with...

On a side note, I might have stripped the first two bolts I went at when trying to strip the cases. The bolts that are right to the sides of the chamber inside the block are really impossible to break out. I'm really pissed too, I just bought a 12 point socket set with 1/2 inch hole for my impact, and the damn thing is too big to fit in there....

I tried it by hand with a different socket, and one after the other, both bolts stripped. I really would like to take apart the cases and replace all the bearings in there, but hate the thought of having to drill out the bolts....

Danny

555BCTurbo · Post by **555BCTurbo** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:10 am

I wouldn't use an air impact to work on aluminum engines...

But that's just me

gto7419 · Post by **gto7419** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:31 pm

To be honest, I used to loosen like 3-4 bolts, and it worked wonderfully. I kept the regulator low on the compressor as to not break anything... I couldnt get the breaker bar onto a few bolts...

gto7419 · Post by **gto7419** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:17 am

Whoo hoo!!! Bolts were not stripped - got them out today!!!

Wow, there are a lot of bolts holding the two cases together... My haynes manual didnt show them all either...

Anyway, those two aligning pins like to make the cases stick together. Took me about an hour to pull the two apart.

My crank looks like its in decent shape - I'll take pics of that and the block so I can post and get some opinions.

I decided even if I dont do the stroker, I want to replace the bearings - hence why the block is apart.

So, as of right now, I feel like the stroker is going to be a problem. Theres not enough info out there that says its going to work with the ej22t pistons, and I just dont have the money for custom pistons (well, I do, but I'd like to be able to move out of my parents house eventually).

So, Im buying new bearings and a ring set. Already ordered a new gasket set from ebay - $60 shipped... Have my cometic head gaskets on the way....

Also have some usdm phase I dohc heads on the way!!!

I kind of want to replace all the bolts holding the cases together, along with the head bolts.... Are these available only through subaru? I have a feeling each one is going to be mighty expensive....

Going to need-

-bearings
-ring set
-ring compressor and expander
-permatex
-engine assembly lube

This really is a lot of work, but its so relaxing. Im exhausted, but I feel great at the same time....

Danny

gto7419 · Post by **gto7419** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:19 am

Almost forgot -

I should absolutely have the block honed correct?

I have a mill and a drill press, along with a MULTITUDE of drills - should I attempt to do this myself? Or, should I take it to a local machine shop and have them hone and clean the entire block?

Danny

mr soul · Post by **mr soul** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:52 am

We have built several stroked EJ22t's using the off the shelf Wiseco piston (so not custom) and the phase 1 crank and rods from an EJ25. This is the only combination out there to stroke this motor. This crank has a 79mm throw which is 4mm longer than the crank that came in the stock EJ22t and why you need the shorter pistons. Stroker motors make noticably more torque and are awesome from a butt dyno perspective.

A stroker build is physically not possible if you want to utilize the stock EJ22t piston. For a budget build, (which I'm assuming this is) BEFORE getting new bearings, inspect your crank visually, clean up any burs or nics using emory cloth and polish by hand as best you can. Buy a micrometer to measure the thing. If it is in spec, then get standard bearings. Next get platiguage and install everything. The platiguage tells you the oil clearances based on how much your crank my be worn. This figure is critical to the longevity of the motor so if it is above spec, you need to go to plan B, which involves oversized bearings and grinding and polishing the crank. You can go fairly loose, but def consider an EJ22t oil pump as they flow more volume than others.

Don't forget new thrust bearings too, if block is from a manual, the thrust bearings wear heavily depending on the drivers habits with clutch use while stopped. (Dont' hold in the clutch for periods of being stopped people!!!)

Since you a planning to use used pistons, I would just give your block a good hand hone (you can buy a device to put in drill that will do this) Add new rings to your pistons and install. I could go on and on about piston to cylinder wall clearance but since you want to use old pistons, I'll byte my tounge. What you are doing is not recommended, but many have, including us.

If you are doing this as an expriment, have fun and enjoy the process. If this is your only car or you want it to push above 15-18 PSI, I would not reccomend this type of budget build. You are comprimising motor longevity and reliability by cutting corners on a rebuild. You might make out great, but don't be surprised if you have a hard time seating rings and ending up with low compression numbers.

Good luck, building motors is cool and very rewarding!
Keith

PS: Anybody want a closed deck, darton sleeved, EJ25: I have everything in stock...

gto7419 · Post by **gto7419** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:33 am

You wouldnt happen to know the weisco piston part numbers would you? I will give it a strong glance it its not going to cost a whole lot more....

And, THANK YOU very very very much - this was the info I was looking for.

Danny

mr soul · Post by **mr soul** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:38 am

It's K602M975 and I stock them. $430 shipped. Which I think is competitive with the devil (cough summit cough)...

These are only available in oversize, meaning you would HAVE to get the block bored and honed by a machinst adding maybe $400 in machining costs. Also, to put this into an open deck EJ22, waste of money....You will blow out your bore before ever realizing the potential of this combination...

What are your goals with this car and I notice you mentioning many different heads....I'd recomend picking a head that your intake manifold will bolt right up to. (less wiring issues later) and how are you going to deal with engine managment if you are boosting a NA?

gto7419 · Post by **gto7419** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:13 am

Well I guess Im not building a stroker anymore

Im using ej25 dohc heads AND intake manifold. Should all be plug and play from what I've read and from what I've been told.

Im using the stock ecu. I am either going to pony up some dough to buy a msd dis2 or dis4, or im going to buy their boost timing retard box.

For fuel, Im going to run sti 440's and Im using a rrfpr. Im also going to buy a walbro fp.

Im not sure what goals Im really searching for anymore.... Im hoping I can pull ~220 whp on my small T3 with boost somewhere between 10-15 through an 06 wrx i/c.

I have a turbonetics mbc waiting to be put in as well.

Are you talking about the thrust bearing on the clutch, or the main thrust bearing in the block? Im going to order main and rod bearings after work tomorrow. I have several mics sitting next to my mill that I can check the crank with....

Im looking at clevite and acl bearings. The clevite bearings are MUCH cheaper. - Any difference in quality?

I've been reading a lot about plastigate, but I have yet to understand EXACTLY how you use it and what it tells you - Im really much better at seeing and doing.

Also, I was under the impression that the ej25 rods were shorter than the ej22 rods... Im using ej25 heads that have a larger volume.... I figured this along with the ej22t head gasket should give me enough space in there.... (Just pulling this out of my @ss)

DAnny

gto7419 · Post by **gto7419** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:39 am

On another note, couldnt I mill down the ej22t pistons I have? 4mm is not a HUGE number. Plus, if the ej25 rods ARE actually shorter than the ej22 rods, and I only have to mill down 2mm, that could be doable... Im going to go check out my pistons with my caliper and make some calculations....

gto7419 · Post by **gto7419** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:14 am

4mm on the piston consists of ALL of the lip that forms the top of the piston. Theres several more mm's before the first ring, but I doubt the piston would hold up well if I machined ALL of that off. I believe there is also at least 8mm of material below the piston top. (Or maybe it was 4 - its late - Im going to need to double check this tomorrow).

If it was 8mm, the piston should be machinable. 1 or 2 off the top lip, and 1 or 2 off the top inside dish. Although from what you are saying, this most likely wont be enough....

Danny

206er · Post by **206er** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:14 pm

get a junk piston to cut up so you know if it is really safe to try. if you do it right, perhaps squish wont be too badly effected.

mr soul · Post by **mr soul** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:09 pm

I think milling the piston would be a bad idea. You are already venturing into risky territory with this build, why push the limits even further....

Now, again, don't want to rain on your party, but who ever told you that a 98 Manifold will be plug and play in a 93 is wrong. It's pretty far from plug and play. Again, I'd reccomend using your stock manifold to keep it simple. Where are you going to get high pressure oil and water for the turbo? This is something to think about while picking heads.

You are putting in 440 cc injectors and a RRFPR, you car will idle like complete crap if at all. You need to be able to trim fuel if you are adding big injectors. You could stick with stock injectors and a RRFPR, a 4:1 will support modest boost levels.

mr soul · Post by **mr soul** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:18 pm

Clevite and ACL are both good names, go with cheaper. We use ACL coated bearings in all our builds.

Again, don't buy bearings until you measure your crank, you are wasting money if you end up buying the wrong bearings.

I got mazdog shit in my head when I mentioned thrust bearings. They are seperate on most motors but on a suby they are part of the main bearing set you will end up with so disregard that thought.

Platiguage is easy, just go buy some at the parts store and read the directions. You basically cut and put little strips of plastic in between the bearings and crank and then torque it down. Measure how far the plastiguage "smears" and you have a crude measure of your oil clearance.

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My Ej22/Ej25 hybrid build thread with lots of questions

My Ej22/Ej25 hybrid build thread with lots of questions