legacy sport sedan and touring wagon "performance"

ramathorn · Post by **ramathorn** » Wed May 16, 2007 6:17 am

i say no. they are still just economy boxes with a little bit of differences than base legacy's.

discuss

jamal · Post by **jamal** » Wed May 16, 2007 6:25 am

maybe you should read up a bit on subaru motorsports history.

skid542 · Post by **skid542** » Wed May 16, 2007 6:50 am

With all due respect, what's the point of this thread?

It's not as if the search button isn't under-utilized enough already.

ramathorn · Post by **ramathorn** » Wed May 16, 2007 6:55 am

okay does anyone here want to explain to me how a 160hp 181ft. lbs torque monster was considered a "performance car"?

of its time it may have been an upper scale of the legacy family but its still an economy car. isnt it?

555BCTurbo · Post by **555BCTurbo** » Wed May 16, 2007 6:57 am

I have been discussing this stuff with ramathorn on AIM...and I told him that posting such a thread on a Legacy specific forum would not impress many of the members...and it seems that my guess was correct...

The Legacy Sport Sedan was actually not the most upscale member of the Legacy Lineup...the LSi was...

The Sport Sedan was essentially what would equate to a Legacy GT of the current day...nicer, but not the top line model (as the 3.0R VDC is the poshest, most expensive Legacy these days iirc)

douglas vincent · Post by **douglas vincent** » Wed May 16, 2007 7:33 am

Well....... Consider what was available in 1991 please. If you are that old? I actually owned a NEW 1991 Legacy. Plain and simple, it was a nice car compared to what else was out there for the money.... We (her parents) paid 13$k for a new FWD wagon. Wow, was is different than the old Loyals of yore.

555BCTurbo · Post by **555BCTurbo** » Wed May 16, 2007 7:43 am

A 4 door sedan in 1991 that ran a 16.0 quarter mile off the lot was considered pretty fast!

AWD_addict · Post by **AWD_addict** » Wed May 16, 2007 7:59 am

555BCTurbo wrote:The Sport Sedan was essentially what would equate to a Legacy GT of the current day...nicer, but not the top line model (as the 3.0R VDC is the poshest, most expensive Legacy these days iirc)

Nick you're forgetting the Spec.B, which is a few grand more.

ramathorn needs to read the car mag reviews of the SS from when it came out in '91.
The "little bit of differences" are not any less than what the sporty versions of a lot of cars get. The turbo Legacies were economy cars in the sense that they were/are reasonably affordable to buy and run. If you're comparing the Legacy to dedicated performance cars, that is apples to oranges. A sporty sedan is not an all out performance car, it's still useful for practical stuff.

ramathorn · Post by **ramathorn** » Wed May 16, 2007 8:39 am

555BCTurbo wrote:A 4 door sedan in 1991 that ran a 16.0 quarter mile off the lot was considered pretty fast!

put this into consideration: as far as 1/4 mile times are these performance sedans (im sure i could find alot more if i wanted to in the early 90s)? to me personally these dont look l ike performance cars when someone says it.

1991 acura legend 16.2
1991 dodge spirit rt 15.0
1991 ford tarus sho 16.2
1991 infiniti g20 16.6
1992 lexus es300 16.6
1992 lexus ls400 16.0
1992 mazda 626 16.2
1992 nissan maxima 15.7
1992 nissan stanza 16.0
1991 oldsmobile cutlass 16.1
1992 pontiac grand am 15.8
1991 saturn sl2 16.5
1992 toyota camry 16.2
1990 vw jetta 16.6
1991 mitsubishi galant vr4 15.4

ramathorn dosent really need to read more up on the "performance marvels" of the legacy SS ive read quite a few of them as ive read a bit about them only being compared to the galant vr4 (which beats it hands down). i just thought it would be a nice discussion to have to see what you guys actually makes a sports car a perfrormance car. from what ive seen the sport sedan was produced for one of two reasons if not both.

1. to compete with sales in the "sport sedan" pretty much directly with mitsubishi.

2. to have sales in north america of an awd turbo car so they can run it in manufacture rally's.

nobody is really saying how or what makes the sport sedan a performance car. when i think of a PERFORMANCE CAR i think of something that is really bad ass and deffinatly purpose built (lets say a zo6). to me it seems as if its purpouse built as the frame is reinforced over the regular, hp is much higher, tq is up, you put slicks on it take it to the track just off the showroom floor and run mid-low 11s, to me thats a performance built car. what other car in the price range can do that? are those performance cars (id say yes)? not just drag times either the zo6 handels superb (from what ive read in mags) there are so many tests that say so. i dont remember what it was like in 91 when the ss came out as i wasnt driving yet but im pretty sure 16s really wasnt all that fast as if you look above and see the competition.

555BCTurbo · Post by **555BCTurbo** » Wed May 16, 2007 5:19 pm

So explain why you are coming on a Subaru LEGACY forum and bashing Legacies...

I know you don't own one, and that you are a Mitsubishi/DSM guy, so why don't you stick with those, and not try to incite argument within a forum that doesn't even really pertain to you.

gto7419 · Post by **gto7419** » Wed May 16, 2007 6:58 pm

This is getting really interesting - especially because ramathorn has posted parts wanted ads for subaru specific items

555BCTurbo · Post by **555BCTurbo** » Wed May 16, 2007 8:01 pm

gto7419 wrote:This is getting really interesting - especially because ramathorn has posted parts wanted ads for subaru specific items

He has a 22t swapped Impretzel

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Wed May 16, 2007 8:18 pm

And performance cars of the fifties would get spanked by hatchbacks today. Even grand prix cars of that time couldn't compete with a modern M3. Ferraris of twenty-five years ago could be trounced by a WRX (when contemporary Subaru turbos still had under 100 HP). What's your point? Numbers are what kids in middle school use to one-up each other at lunch and they mean little to the actual feel of a real life grown-up car. An Austin-Healey 100/6 is a performance car whether or not a Honda Odyssey could outrun it today. It doesn't become a truck just because technology passes it by and that doesn't make an Odyssey a perfromance car. The Legacy turbo is a rally homologation special like the 323 GTX, VR-4, and All-Trac Celica.

Imprezive · Post by **Imprezive** » Wed May 16, 2007 8:37 pm

ramathorn wrote:

ramathorn dosent really need to read more up on the "performance marvels" of the legacy SS ive read quite a few of them as ive read a bit about them only being compared to the galant vr4 (which beats it hands down).

Did you just refer to yourself in the third-person?

By the way, it's called the Legacy "Sport Sedan" it is by every right a sporty car. It is NOT a sports car.

To put it in perspective, think of a 2001 Corolla Sport. It isn't a sports car for sure, but it does have a leg up on any run of the mill Corolla CE or other base model. Just because it says "Sport" on it doesn't mean it is automatically more superior to any car that does not have a sporty acronym.

internetautomart · Post by **internetautomart** » Wed May 16, 2007 9:11 pm

I'll add my .02
The Legacy SS had better handling than most of it's contemporaries IIRC

By comparison I had a 92 Maxima SE (190hp) and it would easily spank it in the straght line, possibly even in some road courses, but it wasn't anywhere near a reasonable comparison.
the Max was 25k new and the Legacy SS was less than that.

Post by **DLC** » Wed May 16, 2007 10:37 pm

vs Galant VR-4

http://legacycentral.org/articles/vs/vs_1.htm

AWD_addict · Post by **AWD_addict** » Wed May 16, 2007 11:08 pm

ramathorn wrote:nobody is really saying how or what makes the sport sedan a performance car. when i think of a PERFORMANCE CAR i think of something that is really bad ass and deffinatly purpose built (lets say a zo6).

Corvette drama

The Sport Sedan was a better performing car than the NA Legacy, not a better performer than top sports cars. So it's not a PERFORMANCE CAR by that definition.
But it's still fun to drive, so what if it's not in the cool kids' category of PERFORMANCE CARS?

ramathorn · Post by **ramathorn** » Thu May 17, 2007 4:09 am

AWD_addict wrote: Corvette drama

The Sport Sedan was a better performing car than the NA Legacy, not a better performer than top sports cars. So it's not a PERFORMANCE CAR by that definition.
But it's still fun to drive, so what if it's not in the cool kids' category of PERFORMANCE CARS?

basically thats what im talking about 555bcturbo seems to disagree and says that the sport sedan is a performance car. it maybe the sportier of the legacy's but by no means a sports/ performance car.

like 555bcturbo said i have ads looking for parts is because i have a ej22t swapped gc.

how am i bashing on legacy's? i asked a question and started a discussion. i maybe a dsm guy as ive had 2 1g talon tsi awd, 1 1g eclipse gsx, 1 galant vr4 but do you guys know what ive had as far as subarus? lets count them up 02 wrx, 97 impreza sedan, 95 impreza wagon, 95 impreza coupe (currently), 96 legacy outback (currently), 92 legacy rhd wagon. as i told 555 im not an anti-sport sedan guy im pro-awd or rwd turbo guy.

speaking of maxima's diddn the 92ish maxima's have a little sticker on them on the rear 1/4 window 4dsc (4 door sport compact)? would that make it a sports car since it has it in the title?

oh noes i only joined this forum to start arguments

. if i were to start this thread on any number of forums i suppose i would somewhat of the same response from a bunch of people but, i thought somebody could shed a little light on what makes the sport sedan a performance or sporty car? i guess nobody really has an answer to why they their car is considered a performance car.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Thu May 17, 2007 4:46 am

It has a turbo... for better performance than the N/A (not a performance car) and the suspension is tuned for better handling than ride. It's more performance oriented than the other models and most of its peers. Its a performance car whether or not it has a lot of performance. A frog is a predator even though dozens of other animals prey upon it.

skid542 · Post by **skid542** » Thu May 17, 2007 4:50 am

Edit: ^^^ very well put and concise.

.... There are very few cars that are relatively affordable that can be considered performance cars by today's standards. If you're going to sit here and say this is performance, this isn't, this is sporty, this isn't then it's all just generalizations and weak comparisons. A properly setup STi will smoot a stock STi so does that make the STi a non-performance car? How about putting some hard numbers to these defintions you are trying to hold the SS to and not just a list of what different cars do. What do you define a performance car to be - and any answer with a direct link to another car is unacceptable as then you're right back to comparing car A to car B and not car A to a real definition. In this definition you need to include what type of driving and what type of conditions. A stock L trim would waste a lot of 'performance' cars on a rally stage.

Finally, if we're going to take a car that designed in the early 90's and hold it today's standards then I believe that modifications need to be brought into this equation. There are plenty of SS on this board that would waste any number of 'performance' cars.

I can't believe I wrote this much on this... but your initial question was/is completely open ended with no 'real' answer. You already had your 'answer' before you asked, which brings me back to my very original question - why'd you start this thread? Catching my drift.... (oh look at the pun....)

Imprezive · Post by **Imprezive** » Thu May 17, 2007 4:57 am

ramathorn wrote: speaking of maxima's diddn the 92ish maxima's have a little sticker on them on the rear 1/4 window 4dsc (4 door sport compact)? would that make it a sports car since it has it in the title?

That makes no sense at all.

Here is a sports car (hot pink, oh yes):

Here is a sport compact:

The legacy is sporty because it has a reasonable amount of horsepower and good torque. It has independent suspension and is AWD. This makes it "sporty" because it isn't as sluggish and is more nimble than it's Naturally aspirated brethren.

This is a dumb thread.

ramathorn · Post by **ramathorn** » Thu May 17, 2007 6:14 am

now you guys are actually starting to understand what im asking "whats makes the ss a sport/ performance car". 555 had this discussion last night and he really couldnt come up with any real answers other than its just a detuned ra which is a purpose built car.

like i stated i consider a performance car somthing that is purpose built. i just through out the zo6 as an example of what i think a performance car is. if you want to take the ss and compare it to other cars (like i listed) as far as 1/4 mile performance i wouldnt consider ANY of those cars performance cars or sports cars by any means. there are some cars in the list that are just a little more sporty than their lower base models but still not sports cars in my mind.

555BCTurbo · Post by **555BCTurbo** » Thu May 17, 2007 6:19 am

You never gave me any real definition of what you thought a performance car was...

You were saying how the VR4 is such a superior car...except for the fact that is was more expensive, heavier, worse braking, and worse handling than the Legacy Sport Sedan...(all according to that article)

And yes, this thread is worthless, because most of us participating in this thread own Legacy Turbos, and know exactly how great they are, and aren't gonna be convinced otherwise, especially that a Mitsushitty is better...

ramathorn · Post by **ramathorn** » Thu May 17, 2007 6:22 am

ramathorn wrote: like i stated i consider a performance car somthing that is purpose built.

will that quote work?

ramathorn · Post by **ramathorn** » Thu May 17, 2007 6:23 am

ramathorn wrote:
555BCTurbo wrote: when i think of a PERFORMANCE CAR i think of something that is really bad ass and deffinatly purpose built (

another.

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legacy sport sedan and touring wagon "performance"

legacy sport sedan and touring wagon "performance"