Winter & Studded Tire Technical Discussion

Dynamic Entry · Post by **Dynamic Entry** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:42 am

Are there any threads where the physics of tire performance in snow, ice and mixed conditions has been discussed. I have looked around but mostly find threads about brand choice etc..

Narrower is better for snow but what about ice and gravel combination settings? For instance, when cornering on ice is it better to have more studs in the sense that you have more surface area or less studs so that they sink in more?

I have just been really curious as I am buying studded tires and plan to get 185-55-16. Last winter I ran Michelin Pilot Alpins on my stock wheels and really loved them but at RallyX events I couldn't hold my lines because after the first runs were done there were huge sheer ice patches exposed. So studs seem a must this year.

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:11 pm

Most Rally X I've ever heard don't allow studded tires in winter. I'd check on that.

I run studded GoodYear Ultra Grips on all four corners in winter. I run 'em on the OEM 91-93 SS 15" rims so they are 195-60-15. I like them a lot. Lots of grip. They are a pretty aggresive tire though even without the studs.

dropdfocus · Post by **dropdfocus** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:37 pm

Of course there's the ever popular Blizzaks to use too.

Dynamic Entry · Post by **Dynamic Entry** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:01 am

Awww c'mon, where's Jamal's crazy smart theory?

Someone at least drop a link to a free body diagram or something......

Dynamic Entry · Post by **Dynamic Entry** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:11 am

Matt-
In my local Winter Auto X studded tires are allowed.

How do you feel about running studs in daily driving? Do you spend a significant portion of time on bare roads?

Here in Calgary our winters are really manic, weeks of heavy snow and deep freeze but also some days where we get warm winds and everything melts and people wear t-shirts in January.
All in all the roads I drive on are clear *most* of the time but any given day they could have a foot of snow and a layer of ice underneath that snow.

stipro · Post by **stipro** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:22 am

^^I second that. I run stock wheels and studded 195/60/R15, they handle quite well with ample grip. The smallest I have run is 185/70/14 and they worked well too, but that was on my 4WD Camry.

jamal · Post by **jamal** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:45 am

Dynamic Entry wrote:Awww c'mon, where's Jamal's crazy smart theory?

Someone at least drop a link to a free body diagram or something......

hahaha

well, here are my thoughts, crazy and theory definitely apply but I'm not sure about the rest.

From what I've gathered watching bootleg downloads of WRC, the main thing that varies on snow rallies is the length of the studs, not the quantity or spacing or tire width (the tires are all narrow to get through the soft stuff). Since the studs are all so pointy I don't think having more could cause a decrease in grip.

As far as studs go, they provide the best grip on snow and ice. However the new snow tires like blizzaks or hakkipeltiawhatevers do a really great job and I wouldn't bother with studs because they kind of suck when it's dry.

Oh and I was born in Lethbridge and grew up there so I know exactly what you're talking about with the weather.

dropdfocus · Post by **dropdfocus** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:03 am

jamal wrote:hakkipeltiawhatevers

Ooo, I heard Tire Rackamajob has them on sale!!!

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:53 am

Dynamic Entry wrote:Matt-
In my local Winter Auto X studded tires are allowed.

How do you feel about running studs in daily driving? Do you spend a significant portion of time on bare roads?

Here in Calgary our winters are really manic, weeks of heavy snow and deep freeze but also some days where we get warm winds and everything melts and people wear t-shirts in January.
All in all the roads I drive on are clear *most* of the time but any given day they could have a foot of snow and a layer of ice underneath that snow.

Yeah, here in PA it's hit and miss too. The studded tires are definitely performance handicapped in dry conditions but it's really not too bad. If you take a corner fast sometimes you can feel the car almost slide through the turn but it's kinda fun too as long as you are aware of it. Once it does snow or get icy it's like driving a tank though.

For me running studs in winter is just kind of habit from growing up in Oregon and going skiing all the time. Out here they salt the roads so even when it snows it doesn't last too long. In OR they just plow and use cinders for the most part, especially up in the passes.

bmxkelowna · Post by **bmxkelowna** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:08 am

last year i won the local rallyx here (on a frozen lake) there were 4 class':
2wd winter
2wd winter studded
4wd winter
4wd winter studded

the studded class had to use street legal studs so no crazy wrc kinds

i was in 4wd winter on 195/55/16 Hankook winter ipike and i had the fastest time out of every one includding the 4wd winter studded.

they are an amazing tire with tons of grip in fresh snow, packed snow and ice.

i would buy an other set in a heartbeat.

Dynamic Entry · Post by **Dynamic Entry** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:09 am

bmxkelowna wrote:i was in 4wd winter on 195/55/16 Hankook winter ipike and i had the fastest time out of every one includding the 4wd winter studded.

That is pretty hard to argue with. I think I remember pics of the "ice race"....

Man I wasn't even considering NOT buying studs when I started asking questions. I just wanted to know about width
^^^^BTW - where's vickash in all this?

Now you have me wondering if I even should. Although I am pretty sure I will....

In the Calgary SCC they don't classify by tire at all. Its just 2wd vs 4wd. So that doesn't concern me at all.

Matt-
I wouldn't mind having the "loss" of traction on dry roads, do the studs become dull really quickly if you drive aggressively on bare pavement?

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:59 pm

Not really. The more you drive on the studs the more aggressive they tend to become.

Dynamic Entry · Post by **Dynamic Entry** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:15 am

Then this choice just got easier. Studs for this Leggy. I can't wait to be in the mountains!

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:36 am

Here studs are illegal (though you still occasionally hear them go by). Guess they figure the roads are bad enough as it is.

Post by **Legacy777** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:58 pm

Just a little humorous tid-bit. I saw more people in the Seattle area (PNW) that ran studded snow tires then people in Pennsylvania.

Something's wrong with that....it snows a lot more in PA then in Seattle. But I know why it happened.....drivers in Seattle are mostly morons....

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:47 pm

Or they are going skiing at Baker and Stevens Pass and that's why they have studs.

A lot of people in Willamette and Rogue Valley's in Oregon run studs even though it hardly ever snows in them (the valley's), 20 minutes outside of town though and you're 3000' higher and on snow packed roads.....

BSOD2600 · Post by **BSOD2600** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:21 am

Legacy777 wrote:Something's wrong with that....it snows a lot more in PA then in Seattle. But I know why it happened.....drivers in Seattle are mostly morons....

*cough* As a Seattleite, I would have to completely agree that studded tires are pointless AND most people in the area have no clue how to drive on 0.5 inches of snow. I'm more afraid of the idiots on the road than the snow. Now while I'm down in Klamath Falls, OR going to school, I've gotten plenty of experience driving in the snow; in both FWD and AWD. It IS quite nice that the locals here know how to drive in snow/ice and everything doesn't come to a freaking halt just because of some white stuff.

Last year, I didn't put studs on my car and I managed through the winter with the crappy no-name tires which are on it. Sure, if I took a corner too fast, I would slide / back would come around, but I had no problems going down the road, stop/starting, etc.

jamal · Post by **jamal** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:44 pm

BSOD2600 wrote: *cough* As a Seattleite, I would have to completely agree that studded tires are pointless AND most people in the area have no clue how to drive on 0.5 inches of snow. I'm more afraid of the idiots on the road than the snow.

It's even worse if it rains in LA.

Anyway, unless you are actually ice racing or something, I would skip the studs and go with good snow tires.

Post by **Legacy777** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:46 pm

legacy92ej22t wrote:Or they are going skiing at Baker and Stevens Pass and that's why they have studs.

You'd think so, but not as many as you think. I've driven with just good snow tires, yoko guardex (similar to blizzacks) when I lived in PA and I was very impressed with them. Put those on and I think you'd do just fine.

beatersubi · Post by **beatersubi** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:36 pm

Legacy777 wrote:drivers in Seattle are mostly morons....

I can attest to that. People here lose it when they see the white stuff. Personally, I head up to the mountains 'cause it doesn't snow enough in the lowlands.

Woody9101 · Post by **Woody9101** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:06 am

When I go to the winter rallys around here, I have seen wrx, and legacy's use 4 spare tires that they made the studs for. And they seem to work really well surprisingly

Dynamic Entry · Post by **Dynamic Entry** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:50 pm

I am just going to throw out there that I don't think anybody needs studs for driving around in a major city. Last year my Alpin's were fantastic and on the streets I didn't need anything more. I am going to run studs because of the specific conditions that I will face in my WinterX this year.
And for that I am excited

Aerotech · Post by **Aerotech** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:30 am

Studs are pointless (no pun) in *most* major metro areas, but I can definitely see having a set for competition or extended mountain use.
I run 205/55-16 Hakkapelittawhatevers in the winter, gets me through anything that doesn't high-center the car, and hard pack & ice feels like dry pavement.
They are a bit more wobbly on dry pavement, you can feel the tread shift in hard corners. Directional tread is quiet on the highway.

WRC snows really do look like space-saver spares... bristling with inch-long pointed spikes

Dynamic Entry · Post by **Dynamic Entry** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:37 am

Stuff like this is what I had in mind. Lot's of info, but very interesting.
http://www.bfgoodrich.com/racing/ImageS ... BFG_RACING

91riored · Post by **91riored** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:59 pm

evolutionmovement wrote:Here studs are illegal (though you still occasionally hear them go by). Guess they figure the roads are bad enough as it is.

what??? i guess i'll be extra carefull blowing thru on my way up to jay peak...haha that a local law? my aunt lives outside of worchester and runs studs.. we run studs on nantucket in the winter..

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Winter & Studded Tire Technical Discussion

Winter & Studded Tire Technical Discussion