Alignment!

[THAWA]

or were competing with it

Well, I hope to make that a possibility soon. I do want to start autoXing (once a year with the Mazda events just isn't enough ). But I guess I should worry about alignment settings when those events actually come up and not now when I'm just daily-driving it.

Not like they'd let me autoX while I'm missing a wheelstud anyway

Thats like a 5 dollar/10 minute fix though. If you're going to start auto-x'ing though, definately get as much negative camber up front as possible, and throw on the largest front bar you can.

BTW, do you have the other specs? SAI/Kingpin, Caster, Included angle, Thrust andle?

Sure do.

Front caster:
Left 4.1º
Right 3.7º

Rear thrust angle:
-0.1º

SAI:
Left 23.4º
Right 13.3º

Included Angle:
Left 23.4º
Right 13.5º

Either that's a typo, or something is knackered. Either the left front control arm, the knuckle, the strut, or the frame. You should look and see what is damaged. A 10º difference in SAI/IA is huge. I'm willing to guess that since the camber is right at spec on that side, and the caster isn't THAT far off(based on the other control arm, not the spec), that the knuckle is the problem. Definately go look first and see what's wrong though.

[THAWA]

So, if my car's pulling to the right, how do I fix that at home so I can avoid the $65 dollar alignment fee?

First make sure it's not the tires causing the pull, then go get a 25" square piece of plywood, some string, a long tape measure, and your best friend google.

[entirelyturbo]

Hardy, can you explain what SAI/IA settings are?

[THAWA]

Steering axis inclination/Kingpin angle is a measurement of the angle between the upper and lower outer pivot points and a verticle line. On our car those points are the upper strut bearing and the balljoint. It's one of those steering things like caster. You can't adjust it easily, and it only really affects steering. I believe less SAI makes it easier to steer, and more makes it harder. Or maybe that's backwards.

Included angle is the sum of the SAI and the Camber. This is a diagnosis measurement pretty much. And it appreas something is amiss on both sides. You have -.2º camber on the front right, so that plus the SAI(13.3º) should make the Included Angle 13.1º, not 13.5º. I think anyway. Maybe I'm wrong, and you use the absolute value for macpherson struts.

These measurements also affect scrub radius. I'll bet it pulls to the left when driving, and pretty hard when braking. It's probably easier to correct after a right hand turn.

Anyway, my first guess would be strut or knuckle. Have you hit anything? Didn't you replace the wheel bearings? Are you sure everything was pressed/torqued down properly?

[entirelyturbo]

So if I'm understanding what you're saying, essentially my left wheel is sticking out about a half-inch or so farther from the chassis than my right wheel is.

The car doesn't pull at all. It's so straight I can let go of the steering wheel at 100mph.

However, I should add that my toe in front is -.05º each side, so
-.1º total toe in the front, so I wonder if that's offsetting it.

I haven't hit anything in years with this car (except a curb or two back when I was a stupid kid and couldn't drive). I have of course done the wheel bearings, but I had someone else press them in, and I've torqued everything down properly (unless torquing down too much can cause this)...

[entirelyturbo]

Okay, so I took some photos of the difference. Granted, they're not precisely accurate to the micrometer, but it at least shows that there is indeed a problem.

I took a yardstick, propped it up against the metal flap sticking down from the frame, the one that the plastic splash shields hold onto, and measured to the absolute outer edge of the tire on each side. Assuming that the flaps on each side are the same distance from the wheel relative to each other, it appears that the driver's side wheel is sticking out approximately ½ inch farther from the chassis than the passenger wheel.

This is the passenger side wheel:


This is the driver side wheel:


Apparently I took the pics at slightly different angles, although I did the best I could to make them the same. You can slightly see the wheel in the driver's pic, and you can't in the passenger's pic, so the measurement looks more extreme than it is. I also tried to have the yardstick lined up right through the center of the wheel (that way, the slight camber difference wouldn't matter), but I see I didn't get that quite right either. I also see that I wasn't holding the camera at the same height each time either.

But... it still looks to me like the driver's wheel is out a ½ inch, or maybe a tiny bit less, farther out than the passenger wheel.

Why? Now that's a good question. As Hardy said, it could be the knuckle, it could be the strut, it could be the control arm. I dunno. I'll have to do some more measurements with the wheels off to find out.

So, I'm doing my best to keep my cool about this, even though it's one more god-damn fucking thing for me to have to deal with. I guess things simply can't go right with this car.

[THAWA]

Have you had an alignment before? What were the specs then?

Look at these two pics:




See how the drivers is a little mangled on the end by the balljoint? I'm willing to bet that is the problem. I was going to suggest that you replace the control arm first as it wouldn't necessitate a realignment, and used ones are relatively cheap, but now I'm pretty sure that's the problem. Also, you have brand new GR-2's so they shouldn't be bent. Really your only choices are knuckle/hub, or control arm, and since it's damaged you should suspect that first. Of course, depending on how long you ran with the bad wheel bearings you may have slightly warped the hub/knuckle. Either way, start with the control arm first.

Also, don't get into a huff about this. You didn't notice any pulling, and your toe is good, so your tires wont wear that badly. Honestly it's not that big of a deal, just something to take care of when you have the time.

[entirelyturbo]

I've done a bazillion alignments on this car, not because it was pulling, but because I was always changing things on it. Nevertheless, I didn't save the hard copy of the specs until this last time, so I dunno what it's previous specs have been.

You're probably right, I never noticed that until you pointed it out.

That's probably the reason why Tire Kingdom stupidly told me I needed new camber bolts. They probably had to screw around with it a lot to get my camber settings right.

I guess I'll just start looking for used control arms then.

As always, thanks Hardy!

[entirelyturbo]

Update:

So after the whole f'ing front suspension swap , I had an alignment done this morning. I'm EXTREMELY pissed off that they said they weren't able to set my camber to -1º, but I have the Challenge coming up this weekend, and I'm just going to do it myself. I'm gonna set the front camber as far negative as it will go, then I'll probably readjust it later.

It looks like our friend Hardy was right again. I did have a bad suspension part.

New specs:
Front left camber: 0.2º
Front right camber: 0.3º
Front left caster: 3.2º
Front right caster: 3.2º
Front left toe -0.04º
Front right toe: -0.03º
SAI Left: 14.2º
SAI Right: 15.0º
Included Angle Left: 14.3º
Included Angle Right: 15.3º

Look at the difference between the SAI/IA specs then and now!

Front caster:
Left 4.1º
Right 3.7º

SAI:
Left 23.4º
Right 13.3º

Included Angle:
Left 23.4º
Right 13.5º

Now I'm unsure if it's an anomaly between alignment machines, but my rear camber settings are -0.8º left and -1.4º right, and I haven't touched anything back there since the last alignment. Rear toe is 0.04º left and 0.06º right.

But yeah, I will hopefully have time tomorrow night to try to set the front camber negative and maybe jerk some things around in the back to try and get the camber back there more equal.

[IronMonkeyL255]

I just aligned mine a few days ago at work.

Went with a 'mild' 1 degree negative camber in the front, and about 0 all the rest of the way around. The front toe was all out of whack, and the driver's front tire is showing it.

I must say, if you go to just about any shop that does alignments, you could probably get the technician to do just about any spec you have adjustment for. Sometimes, you just gotta find the right tech, though..........

Like me, for example. I can now do alignments, and am willing to do just about any setting you ask for. The way I look at it, if you're paying for the alignment and know what specs you want, then I will try my damndest to give it to you. It's your problem if your tires wear funny because of your choices, and it will be documented that you asked for something different from the standard setup.

[IronMonkeyL255]

Holy crap. It feels like I'm driving a whole new car.

Taking a turn where my car would normally try to push through, it felt much more neutral now. The extra negative camber definitely helped.

Also, since re-adjusting my toe, my wheel feels much better, and highway speed stability is much better.

[klaxed]

So I am going to go get my car aligned here pretty soon as it has been about a week of driving around here and there to get everything to settle. I am actually going to go to a place where I can get a certain setting dialed in. As it is, I have never done autocross or the like so I don't really need an aggressive setup, but would like a setup that would improve handling but not increase tire wear as my wagon is my daily driver. I was thinking of going with the following:

Camber:
Front: -1.0 degrees or so
Rear: -.25 to -.5 degrees or so
Caster: 0 all around
Toe:
Front: 0
Rear: the slightest (+) amount

Does this look good? If not recommendations?

[Legacy777]

I'd recommend -1.0 deg of camber in the rear as well.

Rear toe can improve turn in response, but can cause the car to be twitchy at freeway speeds. I run 0 toe all the way around.

Omni Brake & Alignment does good alignments, and are near your area. I used them when I lived in the seattle area.

[jamal]

My current specs:

-1.3 degrees front camber
-1.5 degrees rear camber
(there's like 0.1 deg of x-camber front and rear)

0 toe.

Forget caster but it was equal on both sides.

I will be installing subframe lock bolts and a new front knuckle/hub/bearing soon.

I drilled my knuckles and milled the struts in order to gain more negative camber with STi suspension. I am running two oem bolts set for max neg. camber up front. In the rear I have aftermarket camber bolts maxed out negative.

When I did the calcs on my front strut modification I expected to see -2 degrees of camber. My ideal settings are -2 front -1.5 rear right now. One one side I could get that but on the other it was only -1.3. When I replace the knuckle I will be getting another alignment so I will see if we can get any more out of it.

[klaxed]

I'd recommend -1.0 deg of camber in the rear as well.

Rear toe can improve turn in response, but can cause the car to be twitchy at freeway speeds. I run 0 toe all the way around.

Omni Brake & Alignment does good alignments, and are near your area. I used them when I lived in the seattle area.

Going with the -1.0 deg of camber all around. Gots an appointment with omni setup for wednesday.

[klaxed]

Well I would say Omni is a good place to go. I don't have much experience with alignments so I can't compare the time it took to have this one done compared to others. But the guy did tell me that I have a bent right rear knuckle which I thought was a good thing to tell me. Though I can't recall ever hitting curbs with the right side of my car. I have hit curbs with my left side but everything else was okay. Anyways, I forgot to tell them to dial in -1.0 degrees of camber all around which makes me feel like an idiot but oh well. My final specs are:

Camber:
FL: -.1
FR: -.1
RL: -1.1
RR: -2.0

Toe:
FL: 0
FR: .01
RL: .03
RR: .02

Caster (I have no idea what this means)
FR: 3.3
FL: 4.0

SAI:(I have no idea what this means)
FR: 14.6
FL: 14.4

Included Angle: ( I have no idea what this means)
FR: 14.6
FL: 14.3

I think these look good from what I have seen from other peoples alignment specs. I have the rear camber but not in the front. Could I adjust that myself with out screwing up my alignment that I just got?

[jamal]

Could I adjust that myself with out screwing up my alignment that I just got?

No. Because of the knuckle, the way things mount, and the caster, which is the angle at which the strut leans backward, changing camber will also change the toe, and vice-versa.

SAI is the steering axis inclination, which is basically the angle the strut leans inward. The included angle is the SAI added to the camber.

[Legacy777]

You should have the factory camber bolt on the front struts. Most alignment places don't know this unless they know subaru's.....I had to tell them.

[High PSI]

I've been doing a lot of research regarding alignments on our cars, and it took me a while to find this thread - even though there's a lot of good info in here.

Maybe we could get the spelling error in the title fixed to it's easier to find?

[Legacy777]

fixed