Haltech, LinkPlus, or Autronic for stand alone EM

[Legacy777]

I've come to the point where for what I want to do with the car, I need to get a stand alone unit. The tuner here in Houston recommended I look into these, and I've done some research on the web, read the manuals, and searched on here.

I'm looking for any feedback anyone has. I'm looking at the Haltech E8, LinkPlus G3, and Autronic SM4. A lot of the information on Nasioc is dated because ECU reflashes seem to be the way to go with the newer ECU's.

I have not been able to get a hold of the manual for the SM4 or the software to check it out.

I'm leaning towards the Haltech E8. It has a lot of functionality, tuning software can be set for US units, and it has a pretty decent install base with the first gen liberty/legacy owners down under.

I've read mixed reviews about the Link, but there seems to be some discrepency between the WRXLink & LinkPlus.

I haven't really read anything bad about the Autronic, but it is the most costly out of the bunch. The tuner in town mentioned the worldwide distributor for Autronic quit, so availability of the Autronic ECU's may start becoming an issue, plus he mentioned their technical support was so-so.

I'd like to try and get a hold of the SM4 manual & software to give it some evaluation. If the manual is electronic, would anyone mind emailing it to me?

Any other comments are welcome

Thanks

[Adam West]

I'd like to see a copy of that SM4 book to if you get it.

Sorry, can't give an informed opinion here. The UK folks seem to like Autronic - at least in Japanese Import magazine...

AW

[555BCTurbo]

My uncle in NZ tends to lean towards Autronic...said he has seen some amazing numbers from Subies with the Autronic management


And that is what the 555 Legacy and Impretzel WRC cars used

[93forestpearl]

I suggest comparing all their features, weigh the good and the bad, and play with their software.

A key thing to remember is that fuel is fuel, timing is timing.


I like my Link Plus G2. It offers a ton of features for the money. It has it's quirks, don't get me wrong, but they all do.

Autronic makes a nice stuff. Their auto-tune feature works well, from what I've heard. They only thing that kept me away from Autronic was that the SM2 doesn't read knock. That was kind of a biggie for me. The SM4 is really spendy, like over $3k IIRC


I looked at the Haltec as well. I was under the impression that I had to change out a bunch of sensors to run it so I stayed away.



The Link Plus does a ton of stuff for coming in at around $1800 if you opt for the five bar MAP sensor, depending on what harness you get. It will control variable cam/valve timing if you ever go that route. There's no auto-tune feature, so your initail tuning will take some more time, but its not the end of the world IMO. It has user definable knock-based timing retard which is nice if you get a bad tank of gas or something goes haywire. The main thing I liked what that it works with all of the sensors out of the box. I had to add the intake air temp sensor to my piping, but that was it.

The drivability has been good so far. It has plenty of start-up enrichments for cold weather and what not so starting in -20 degrees has been fine. That probably won't be an issue for you though. My only gripe is the metric units only, but its not a big deal. kPa and celcius aren't the end of the world.


This is what I know based on what I've seen and heard, so take it for what its worth. I did my shopping two years ago, so things may have changed since then.

[Legacy777]

Dan,

I appreciate the comments. I've been emailing with Haltech about a plugin adapter, and they've been responsive. The main thing they don't offer is knock control.

I spoke with the local tuner a little more in detail, and they like the linkplus better because it has knock control, which I agree on, for that added safety.

He also mentioned he had some issues with Haltech in that they initially said they were going to offer him a discount, but then came back and said you'll only get that if you sell $15,000 or more. So from a supplier side to the dealer....it sounds like their's some issues. The link dealer didn't sound like that was the case. However that shouldn't be my lmiiting factor.

He said he got screwed over by Autronic, and now that their world wide distributor quit, or doing whatever, support may be an issue.

So...yeah, I'll focus on the LinkPlus G3 & the Haltech E8 and make up a comparison table. I'm working on making an I/O sheet for the stock ECU, so I know exactly what I need, numbers, etc.

Can you provide any more details about the quirks you're having, any problems, etc.

I'm going to have to read over the manuals some more and what not.

Like I said....any more comments are welcome.

[Legacy777]

Also....are you running the linkplus or the wrx link....I guess I'm not sure if there's a difference, or what exactly is the deal.

[93forestpearl]

Mine is a Link Plus G2, which is about 90% the same as the G3, and they run the same software.


The main quirk is the SI units only, but its not a big deal. I've gotten used to it. You can view a couple live inputs in American units like intake temp and coolant temp, but thats about it. You're an engineer also so I'm sure you won't have too much trouble.


The installation manual for the Link was very comprehensive, step by step and all that. It was very helpful in getting it going on the first try.


One thing that would be nice is if I could save the plotted line graphs when I log. It does datalog in a traditional spreadsheet style that you could copy into excel easily though. My G2 is a serial port and so is my Zeitronix and I finally got the capability to log them both at the same time, which speeds up the tuning process immensely. If you got a G3 it would be USB so no worries.


Another thing that would be nice is the capability to run low impedance injectors, but thats a lot to ask I think. Some day I may want to run a GT35R on E85 and that would take 1200cc+ injectors which I've only found in low impedance. Not the end of the world since a resistor box can take care of it.


I wish they would open up the closed loop boost control sometime soon. They say they've been working on it. I do realize that VVT control took a precedence as did figuring out the EZ30 triggers. I'm sure they'll get that update out sometime in the future.


I've found the software pretty intuitive and easy to use. The 3D representation of the maps are well done and help with smoothing out your maps.



Thats all I have for now. If I think of anything else I'll post it up. Any questions let me know.

[Legacy777]

Dan,

Thanks again for the comments. Yeah I found those temp sensors that can be displayed in english units.

From my research, yeah I haven't found any that can run low impedence injectors without a resistor.

Where are you looking for the closed loop boost control? I've loaded a sample map for the G3, and went to boost control and boost setup. Closed Loop MAP is available to be chosen.........Just loaded a sample map for the G2, and yeah I see what you mean about the G2 not having closed loop boost control.

One question I had was, it looks like a MAF sensor could be used for load. I almost would prefer using a MAF sensor since it compensates for temperature automatically. But I don't know if it's that big a deal. The downside that I can see though is that with the MAP sensor post intercooler, you can compensate temperature changes due to high or low ambient temps.....I guess you could still run a MAF sensor, and install a IAT sensor.

Are you running a WRXLink G2, or just a standard Link Plus G2 that is wired into your stock ECU harness?

Any pictures?

Thanks Dan!

[93forestpearl]

Its a wire in G2. Of course the 1G Legacy is the only one with the ECU under the dash on the left. It makes for a pain to install and do a clean job of it since there are four plugs that come to the ECU from different directions as opposed to being under the passenger's feet with everything in one bundle.



The closed loop boost thing is annoying because in higher gears boost can be a decent amount higher than what you may normally do pulls in for tuning, like fourth gear for me with the 6mt. I'm using a GM BCS and it doesn't like operating at too high of a frequency. I've been running it at 20hz. It might work a little higher, but at 40-50hz I was seeing about a 4-5psi boost overrun at spoolup. I don't know if other BCS's can operate at a higher frequency, and whether or not a higher operational frequency will cut down on the variance in my boost levels in each gear. Thats where the closed loop would come in. I don't want to buy another box to wire into my car and find room for.


I had my heart set on speed-density, so thats the route I went. I regret not getting the 5(they say seven) bar MAP sensor off the bat as it wasn't cheap after the fact. Tuning for your IAT isn't so bad if you get a solid base fuel map together at one temp and you are ready to tune for temps you haven't seen before. I tried a 2D table for that off the bat, and it just plain does not work, because you may have 100 dg F at idle and 100 dg at full load, and things are different. I just like the freedom to make changes in my intake setup without having to fully go back through everything.

The only system that I know of that can run low impedance injectors is the Hyda. In all honesty, I like the Link Plus better overall. The Hydra does some cool stuff, but I'd rather use my own wideband. Since the Link does VVT, the gap isn't even there, or even in favor of the Link, depending on what you want out of a system.

I'll post some pics later of the install, as my hosted pics were deleted by UMD a while back.

[93forestpearl]

IAT sensor



MAP sensor



labels



the mess



green means go!




[/list]

[Legacy777]

Well....for boost, I had planned to use the stock boost control solenoid. I don't see any reason why it won't work....it's a solenoid.

I am not going to do the tuning. I'm having a shop tune it. I may tweak it as time goes on, but I don't feel confident enough to set things up from scratch. I'm hoping though I can get a map from someone, or get things setup enough so that I can drive the car down to the shop.

I don't know.....there's just not a good answer/solution for everything....

[93forestpearl]

There is an early subaru base map that comes in the software and will get you running. Mine popped right off even though it was at 9.5:1 with 650's. One it fires up you can use the master fuel adjustment to get it in the ballpark and be drivable.



I was using the stock BCS but got the GM one thinking it would fix my over-run problem. Then I figured out I had it at too high of a frequency. Not a big deal since the GM one is $26.

[Adam West]

Backing up. Why is company product support important in respect to these? I mean once installed you are pretty much set, right? Thinking about Autronic here...

[Legacy777]

Product support is important during the setup process if you have questions or issues. After everything's setup, again if there's a problem with the ECU, and there's no support to help troubleshoot or repair/replace, you've got a very expensive paper weight. Also, any bugs in the software or firmware....if the product isn't being supported, chances are they won't be fixed.

[93forestpearl]

Link is constantly fixing bugs and opening up new features in the software and firmware. Neil at Performance Developments is pretty decent to work with. The Australian accent is fitting, lol.


I'm not trying to sound like a rep for Link here. I've just been very happy with the product and support for it.

[Adam West]

If you are looking to buy one used on the boards what Link is typically found and works and what is a home run to find????...and any idea what is a typical good used price and what pieces the sale should include???

Thanks.

[93forestpearl]

I don't know much about the earlier Link systems. They were pretty crude back in the day from what I've heard. A Link Plus is nice since you can set your rows and columns where you want. The standard Link does not let you so that.

[Innovative Tuning]

Autronic. After using all three I'd never put the other two on my car. I use the SM4 on my Subaru, but they have a plug and play that works on the legacy SS which I've tuned on a customer's car and it works well.

If your tuner needs support like that he shouldn't be installing the unit or tuning your car. One of the distributors of Autronic quit, not all of them, and he was in Australia. While Ray is a great source of knowledge, you shouldn't need his help if your tuner knows what he's doing. Support is handled through the shop you buy the Autronic unit from so make sure they know what they're doing.

Autronic units are easy to purchase. We've had no lapse in our supply.

[Legacy777]

Just curious, what version of the Link Plus did you use?

[Legacy777]

Well to give an update here. I've talked with quite a few different people, and most of the negative comments regarding the Link were aimed primarily at earlier versions. In addition I think the Link G3 has changed quite a bit, and from what I've seen about people commenting it doesn't have a specific feature have not been correct.....and I think this is just due to the G3 platform having more features then previous versions.

I spoke with Neil at Performance Developments has been real helpful in answering any questions I have asked.

I've also talked with PDX, and they're looking at using/carrying Link I believe after they do some research.

In addition I emailed Ray Hall, who used to be the world wide distributor for Autronic to get his comments. His pertinent comments were:

The SM4 is a very good ECU. The problem is it has started to run out of processor speed as more features have been added since its first release. Ignition stability is suffering, resulting in ignition signals that move around on high speed acceleration and deceleration. The LinkPlus-G3 has no such problems as it uses a more powerful processor running at twice the speed.

Yes in the past Link made rubbish. Three years ago Link replaced the existing engineer with two young engineers just out of university. They have been working away totally redesigning the product.

As far as making maximum power, the ECU used is not important. Example:- The MicroTec is used on some very powerful four cylinder and rotary drag cars. Where a good ECU is needed is for idling, light load driving and starting. The LinkPlus-G3 does these things better then the SM4 and the MicroTech is not in the race.

Every feature the LinkPlus-G3 has works perfectly. Too many ECU are packed with features that do not work as they should.

The only down side to the Link at the moment is the software. It has no tuning tools like Autotune. This is coming. For the tuner this adds to the tune time and cost to the customer. When tuning is over, the software is easy to use for the customer and has very detailed help.

Anyway, that's what I've found, and even before talking with Ray, I have been leaning towards the Link, and his comments more or less confirmed what I was planning to get beforehand. I need to iron out a few details, but that's the direction I'm going.

I'll keep things updated as I move along.

[PhyrraM]

To review, what type of ignition is the G3 using? Wasted spark or COP?

[Adam West]

Interesting about the Autronic chip. Sure would like that plug and play tune tho...Thanks for the update!

AW

[Brat4by4]

Josh, is there a reason you are only looking at the SM4 instead of the GC WRX drop-in box? That should eliminate most of the problems with Autronic that have been mentioned. Not to mention near plug-n-play ability.

And honestly, what it comes down to is what tuner are you going to use and what are they the most comfortable with?

[farfrumwork]

The main issue with the plug & play CG8 autronic board is the lack of IAC control. Many have worked around this with higher idles (especially in winter), but personally I'd like the car to act as much like stock as possible (except when the throttle is down).

Good info on the Link.

[Legacy777]

To review, what type of ignition is the G3 using? Wasted spark or COP?

It can do what ever you want, wasted spark or COP. I'll be using wasted spark.

unused ignition and injection outputs can be used as auxilary outputs.

Here's a list of its I/O, which is pretty impressive IMO.

- It has the standard two trigger inputs (crank & cam)
- +5V & +8V output
- Two load input (MAP & TPS)
- Four analog temperature inputs
- Six analog voltage inputs
- Eight digital inputs
- Eight injector drivers
- Eight ignition drivers
- Eight aux outputs
- Two knock sensor inputs