Well I was just cleaning up the loose ends on the car I bought, and was getting some info on here about the car. Unfortunately, the car died on me while on the highway. It made a pop noise like an intercooler hose being blown off and then the revs dropped down, and it died. I pulled over thinking it was just a hose on my saab intercooler and when I opened the engine bay i saw a tiny bit of smoke or steam coming up from the area right behind the right side of the timing belt. Not from the timing belt but behind it. I think thats the water pump area? I though maybe the timing belt went and blew the engine, but I took the cover off and it was still on and didn't look damaged. I had two weeks prior taken the car in to get the timing belt changed and the water pump changed, so I thought maybe the mechanic shop I took it to screwed something up. I had it towed to them and they told me the starter is dead and I would have to pay 360 bucks just for them to even see what the problem was.
Well, I just left the army, and am trying to go to school, so needless to say 360 bucks is well out of my range. I already spent 2400 on the car and repairs to get it running. I just talked to my father who thinks maybe its an electrical problem. I don't mind doing the work myself, but I don't have the time or money to replace an engine. I don't even see how the starter would cause the car to died? If the engine is toast im gonna have to sell it for scrap which will put me in the dog house for quiet a while.
So where do I start? What do you guys think it is? I was only running 10 pounds of boost and never hit fuel cut, so I don't think I blew the engine that way. Car never smoked, had good power, although sometimes I would hit the gas and the power would take a second to kick in (not turbo lag). Well any info would be appreciated. I really don't want to have wasted my money to have to sell it for junk, I like the car alot.
Engine died..need help! Now with pics, and more noob Q's!
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Engine died..need help! Now with pics, and more noob Q's!
Last edited by dsm_luck on Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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douglas vincent
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I am betting $360 its something DAMN simple.
Get in the engine bay and slowy and methodically take stuff off so you can see EVERYTHING.
IF its the starter, you can change it in about 1-2 hours if you have never done it. You need some long extensions and a wobbly.
Get in the engine bay and slowy and methodically take stuff off so you can see EVERYTHING.
IF its the starter, you can change it in about 1-2 hours if you have never done it. You need some long extensions and a wobbly.
Reddevil, Awaiting new heart, will it ever happen?
1990 wagon, EJ25 12.3 @ 116.5 FAST Family wagon getting new motor soon
1992 wagon, wifes daily, high compression
1992 Touring wagon, should I keep it?
1990 wagon, EJ25 12.3 @ 116.5 FAST Family wagon getting new motor soon
1992 wagon, wifes daily, high compression
1992 Touring wagon, should I keep it?
Does the motor turn over when you turn the key?? It sounds like that shop is greasing you up for penetration. The starter is very unlikely to fail, period, and it sure as hell won't kill the car on the road. Get it moved somewhere else, ASAP, push it if you have to. Double check the timing belt teeth, it may have jumped a few notches, if they didn't set up the tensioner right or something, and it may not look damaged at all. Check for spark, fuel pump operation, and triple check all intake connections. Line up the motor to Top Dead Center #1 cyl and look at the timing marks to see if it jumped time.
Jerry
'04 Passat GLS 4Motion 5MT (Subaru by VW)
'86 Vanagon Syncro Camper Garage Queen
'04 Passat GLS 4Motion 5MT (Subaru by VW)
'86 Vanagon Syncro Camper Garage Queen
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evolutionmovement
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- Location: Beverly, MA
The starter wouldn't cause the car to die. Not only that, it's a 30 minute job to change. Get one from a junk yard and do it yourself (a junk yard OEM should be cheap and likely to be good, better than aftermarket rebuilds). I wouldn't go to them again.
Which 'right side' do you mean? The water pump is on the left side (your right if you're facing the engine). Take off the timing belt covers and check to see that the cams and crank marks all align. The belt may have jumped a couple teeth. That can happen with an old timing belt tensioner (which I'd bet wasn't replaced).
If the water pump blew something out, you'd have gotten coolant all over, the engine would've overheated, or the belt would've jumped teeth if the bearings seized. Seeing as you saw some steam or something, you might want to check into it further. Did the steam smell sweet? What's the coolant level? Is there any coolant spilled?
Did the car just die instantly? Have you checked all the electrical connections? Could be a clue as to why those clowns are thinking there's something wrong with the starter.
If that doesn't add up, pull your plugs and check the condition, check the oil, and the coolant for signs of what else you might be looking at as far as engine damage, but my bet is on something simple like the belt jumping teeth.
Has the starter been troublesome? These cars can kick over very easily and the starters tend to give plenty of warning when they're on their way out. They also tend to be pretty long lived. But if the car won't start, try hitting the starter with a hammer. If it's a manual, have someone push (or get it going yourself if you've got an incline or legs of steel) up to a decent momentum, jump in, put the car in gear, and pop the clutch.
I'm also thinking it's something simple. Usually is.
Which 'right side' do you mean? The water pump is on the left side (your right if you're facing the engine). Take off the timing belt covers and check to see that the cams and crank marks all align. The belt may have jumped a couple teeth. That can happen with an old timing belt tensioner (which I'd bet wasn't replaced).
If the water pump blew something out, you'd have gotten coolant all over, the engine would've overheated, or the belt would've jumped teeth if the bearings seized. Seeing as you saw some steam or something, you might want to check into it further. Did the steam smell sweet? What's the coolant level? Is there any coolant spilled?
Did the car just die instantly? Have you checked all the electrical connections? Could be a clue as to why those clowns are thinking there's something wrong with the starter.
If that doesn't add up, pull your plugs and check the condition, check the oil, and the coolant for signs of what else you might be looking at as far as engine damage, but my bet is on something simple like the belt jumping teeth.
Has the starter been troublesome? These cars can kick over very easily and the starters tend to give plenty of warning when they're on their way out. They also tend to be pretty long lived. But if the car won't start, try hitting the starter with a hammer. If it's a manual, have someone push (or get it going yourself if you've got an incline or legs of steel) up to a decent momentum, jump in, put the car in gear, and pop the clutch.
I'm also thinking it's something simple. Usually is.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
Thanks for the quick replies fellas. I meant right side looking from the front. So left side if your sitting in the car. I smelled something like burning rubber from the area of the water pump when I saw the smoke/steam. The car didn't just quit all at once it just popped, and then dropped revs and lost power until the revs dropped to low to keep the engine running. No coolant spill, and no oil spill, levels are fine as far as I can tell. i tried to restart it twice after it went out, and the engine would crank and sounded like it wanted to start but just die right away. I didn't hear any metal noise or clanking like internal engine damage.
How serious is it if the timing belt jumped teeth? I know my friend's DSM timing belt slipped and bent his valves. If the timing is off are the valves shot? Im a beginner when it comes to fixing cars. How hard is it to get the timing back on? So the place to start is to replace the starter and go from there? I also need to check the timing belt. So there is actual marks on it and the pulleys that need to line up? What manual do you guys use to work on your cars? Me and my father are going to give it a go this weekend and all this info will really help.
Ill also make sure to check the spark plugs to see if they are fouled. What electrical connections should I focus on?
How serious is it if the timing belt jumped teeth? I know my friend's DSM timing belt slipped and bent his valves. If the timing is off are the valves shot? Im a beginner when it comes to fixing cars. How hard is it to get the timing back on? So the place to start is to replace the starter and go from there? I also need to check the timing belt. So there is actual marks on it and the pulleys that need to line up? What manual do you guys use to work on your cars? Me and my father are going to give it a go this weekend and all this info will really help.
Ill also make sure to check the spark plugs to see if they are fouled. What electrical connections should I focus on?
IF your car "CRANKED, but wouldn't start" don't even touch the starter. if the starter were an issue it would not crank at all. Go with what they ^^^^^^^said and check the timing belt alignment yourself. if the valve timing is off these are NON-INTERFERENCE motors, so your valves should be fine. Also, check to make sure they got the crankshaft bolt tight when they did the timing belt.
92wagon (wife's)
92 5mtwagon white(recently re-aquired)
92 sedan (sold)
91 ss no mods (sold)
88 GL Wagon (broken)
92 5mtwagon white(recently re-aquired)
92 sedan (sold)
91 ss no mods (sold)
88 GL Wagon (broken)
I tell you what...
When I've got the hose disconnected from my IAC; the car will crank and run for 3-5 seconds ONCE; it will crank and crank after that but won't keep running.
it sounds like you have a big intake leak somewhere.
failing that, smoke and steam could be just from normal running and you've never noticed it before (it doesn't mean it's normal, but it doesn't mean it relates to this problem)
If you get cranking without starting, you're down to a fuel, air, or spark problem
death on the road sounds like fuel or spark.
your fuel pump may have died on you; while it's not usual for them to die while running (like a lightbulb, they work hardest when they first start running); it's not unheard of.
you can do a compression check, but I would start with fuel pressure... It's a really easy test to tell if your fuel pump is running:
turn the ignition to ACC and make sure everything is off. you want to be in as quiet a location as possible for this; it may even be better to roll the windows up and shut the doors with you in the car.
turn the ignition to the 'ON' position, you should (for a brief moment, no more than two seconds) hear a click followed by the whirrr of a pump that goes off.
to try again, turn the ignition off all the way for at least six seconds; here you're listening for the main relay turn off (sounds like a click from the dash) that cuts power to the ECU; this resets the start sequence and when you turn the ignition to 'ON' it will try to prime the fuel lines again.
you're listening for that sound of the pump. you should hear it if you listen very closely, it's the only noise the car will make in that situation - just make sure all of your accessories are off to afford you the upmost silence (some fuel pumps are much easier to hear than others)
If you don't hear the fuel pump, you have your problem:
fuel pump fuse
fuel pump relay
fuel pump
check the fuse box under the hood for any blown fuses - I'm thinking the main fuse that ties the fuel pump relay to the main relay is in this box too but I can't be sure. it may all be different on your model year car too.
just check for any blown fuses is where I would start in the event that the above test fails.
The fuel pump relay is in the upper dash on the driver side and requires unmounting (but not necessarily removing) the dash from the firewall; these hardly ever fail, and more than likely your problem is with the fuel pump itself.
When I've got the hose disconnected from my IAC; the car will crank and run for 3-5 seconds ONCE; it will crank and crank after that but won't keep running.
it sounds like you have a big intake leak somewhere.
failing that, smoke and steam could be just from normal running and you've never noticed it before (it doesn't mean it's normal, but it doesn't mean it relates to this problem)
If you get cranking without starting, you're down to a fuel, air, or spark problem
death on the road sounds like fuel or spark.
your fuel pump may have died on you; while it's not usual for them to die while running (like a lightbulb, they work hardest when they first start running); it's not unheard of.
you can do a compression check, but I would start with fuel pressure... It's a really easy test to tell if your fuel pump is running:
turn the ignition to ACC and make sure everything is off. you want to be in as quiet a location as possible for this; it may even be better to roll the windows up and shut the doors with you in the car.
turn the ignition to the 'ON' position, you should (for a brief moment, no more than two seconds) hear a click followed by the whirrr of a pump that goes off.
to try again, turn the ignition off all the way for at least six seconds; here you're listening for the main relay turn off (sounds like a click from the dash) that cuts power to the ECU; this resets the start sequence and when you turn the ignition to 'ON' it will try to prime the fuel lines again.
you're listening for that sound of the pump. you should hear it if you listen very closely, it's the only noise the car will make in that situation - just make sure all of your accessories are off to afford you the upmost silence (some fuel pumps are much easier to hear than others)
If you don't hear the fuel pump, you have your problem:
fuel pump fuse
fuel pump relay
fuel pump
check the fuse box under the hood for any blown fuses - I'm thinking the main fuse that ties the fuel pump relay to the main relay is in this box too but I can't be sure. it may all be different on your model year car too.
just check for any blown fuses is where I would start in the event that the above test fails.
The fuel pump relay is in the upper dash on the driver side and requires unmounting (but not necessarily removing) the dash from the firewall; these hardly ever fail, and more than likely your problem is with the fuel pump itself.
91 Legacy Wagon, Total Rally Car.
#82 M4 TRSCCA Rallycross
http://www.youtube.com/mobilepolice/
#82 M4 TRSCCA Rallycross
http://www.youtube.com/mobilepolice/
Ok so I pulled it back from the mechanics today. Took it to my dad's house and began to look at things. We tryed rolling it and putting it into gear to see what it would do and it made a bad noise so I stopped right away. Pulled it into the drive way and began to check out everything under the engine bay..checked fuses, plu wires starter..ect. Decided to attempt to get it to crank. Well it cranked but made a bad grinding noise and the engine shook pretty bad. My first thought was that the engine was indeed toast, but when my father looked at it while i cranked he thought it came from the back by the starter area. Could a starter cause all the issue I have had, or is it something with the engine? We thought maybe the engine was shaking so much because the firing order was off, or maybe the timing belt was off a bit, but I don't know if that would cause what I heard. I really wish I knew more about cars, as this was my daily driver, and I cannot have it down forever. So where to now?
Not the starter motor, if the engine is cranking over.
Please elaborate on "bad noise" from engine; is it actually running but shaking and making a noise, or will it not start, and you're hearing a noise when the starter motor is turning the engine over.
Try to describe the noises you heard, don't be shy about it
Deep, thudding knock is a crank or rod bearing, lighter tapping could be a valve or piston ring, grinding or scraping... well, I'm not sure.
Does the motor crank slowly, or normal speed?
From what you describe, it sounds like the clutch or flywheel came apart...
Please elaborate on "bad noise" from engine; is it actually running but shaking and making a noise, or will it not start, and you're hearing a noise when the starter motor is turning the engine over.
Try to describe the noises you heard, don't be shy about it
Deep, thudding knock is a crank or rod bearing, lighter tapping could be a valve or piston ring, grinding or scraping... well, I'm not sure.
Does the motor crank slowly, or normal speed?
From what you describe, it sounds like the clutch or flywheel came apart...
Jerry
'04 Passat GLS 4Motion 5MT (Subaru by VW)
'86 Vanagon Syncro Camper Garage Queen
'04 Passat GLS 4Motion 5MT (Subaru by VW)
'86 Vanagon Syncro Camper Garage Queen
Well the engine does crank over a few times and then you have to leave it off for a few hours to get it to crank again. It will at like it wants to run but is really slow, shakes, and makes a ton of noise. The longest it stayed running for was only a few seconds and during that time the damn thing shakes like crazy. The best I can describe the the noise is like a grinding metallic noise like something is holding the engine back. Checked oil again and its fine. Whats a sure fire way to tell if the engine is toast before I start ripping things apart? I'm gonna take a good look at the timing belt and pulleys on Saturday, and go from there. The timing belt is brand new but the mechanics were in there screwing around so who knows.Also the whole clutch thing..A new clutch was put in but the mechanic didn't warranty his work or the parts because they weren't his parts. And it would shudder going from a stop to first, and sometimes on a down shift. I will never use a mechanic again...no matter how much im in a hurry. I really don't know how the engine could be toast though. 120k on it, low boost, recent tune up, good oil level, no smoking. Just doesn't add up. Well at least its getting narrowed down to what it could be. Thanks or the help guys, ill update again this weekend, but if you have anymore suggestions let me know.
The shaking engine is usually a missing cylnder, if it's really bad, two or even thee are out. Pull your sparkplugs, and crank the engine, make sure all 4 give you a blast of air out of the plug hole. That eliminates a broken rod or holed/cracked piston. Check for coolant coming out as well.
Check that all the plug wires are in good shape, and check the coil connections for corrosion/misfiring (shows as a greenish white powder).
Look at the plugs; dry and brownish, or wet? If wet, what is it; oil, gasoline, or coolant?
Check your coolant for signs of oil (brown foam, or oil in the overflow tank). I'm leaning towards a badly blown headgasket here... was there any steam (not smoke) out of the exhaust? If the motor does not want to even turn over sometimes, coolant is filling up a cylinder and hydraulic-locking the motor.
Check that all the plug wires are in good shape, and check the coil connections for corrosion/misfiring (shows as a greenish white powder).
Look at the plugs; dry and brownish, or wet? If wet, what is it; oil, gasoline, or coolant?
Check your coolant for signs of oil (brown foam, or oil in the overflow tank). I'm leaning towards a badly blown headgasket here... was there any steam (not smoke) out of the exhaust? If the motor does not want to even turn over sometimes, coolant is filling up a cylinder and hydraulic-locking the motor.
Jerry
'04 Passat GLS 4Motion 5MT (Subaru by VW)
'86 Vanagon Syncro Camper Garage Queen
'04 Passat GLS 4Motion 5MT (Subaru by VW)
'86 Vanagon Syncro Camper Garage Queen
Ok I just read the post above and I will check the plugs and coolant for contamination and let you guys know.
As far as every thing else I pulled off the two side covers on the timing belt today and on the right side pulley where the water pump is, there was a line of paint where I thought maybe the belt line should line up with. It was on the bottom so I cranked the engine until I got the paint line on the top so I could see if it matched up with the timing belt. What i assumed was the timing belt line was 4 teeth forward of that paint line. See pics. Has my timing jumped 4 teeth, and if so would this be the problem? Also I found what looked to be tiny rubber shavings at the bottom of the right timing belt cover, and the belt looks like it has wear marks already on the teeth of it.
Also I found a 1/4 inch vacuum line that comes from the drivers side rear intake manifold runner. I have no idea where the other end is suppossed to go but I know that having a huge vacuum leak at the engine is not good. Any help on where that hooks up? I have a pic of that also. Let me know if im on the right track, thanks!
NOOB EDIT-- Ok so that vacuum line goes to the BPV...I just forgot that's what it was after I took off the Saab Intercooler. Im also betting im wrong about the timing being off because I need to check it at the crank right not a mark on the water pump?
As far as every thing else I pulled off the two side covers on the timing belt today and on the right side pulley where the water pump is, there was a line of paint where I thought maybe the belt line should line up with. It was on the bottom so I cranked the engine until I got the paint line on the top so I could see if it matched up with the timing belt. What i assumed was the timing belt line was 4 teeth forward of that paint line. See pics. Has my timing jumped 4 teeth, and if so would this be the problem? Also I found what looked to be tiny rubber shavings at the bottom of the right timing belt cover, and the belt looks like it has wear marks already on the teeth of it.
Also I found a 1/4 inch vacuum line that comes from the drivers side rear intake manifold runner. I have no idea where the other end is suppossed to go but I know that having a huge vacuum leak at the engine is not good. Any help on where that hooks up? I have a pic of that also. Let me know if im on the right track, thanks!
NOOB EDIT-- Ok so that vacuum line goes to the BPV...I just forgot that's what it was after I took off the Saab Intercooler. Im also betting im wrong about the timing being off because I need to check it at the crank right not a mark on the water pump?
You definately need to get the crank to TDC and the check the belt.
Easiest way, take the belt off line up the marks, then try to start it. This is because you're gonna be trying to line up the paint marks for ever because they don't line up after every revolution of the engine.
Easiest way, take the belt off line up the marks, then try to start it. This is because you're gonna be trying to line up the paint marks for ever because they don't line up after every revolution of the engine.
92wagon (wife's)
92 5mtwagon white(recently re-aquired)
92 sedan (sold)
91 ss no mods (sold)
88 GL Wagon (broken)
92 5mtwagon white(recently re-aquired)
92 sedan (sold)
91 ss no mods (sold)
88 GL Wagon (broken)
Ok what does TDC mean, and how do i do it?
You want me to take the belt off line up the marks and then start it to see if that was the problem right? To take the belt off I have to take off the crank pulley that powers the accessories belt correct? Is it all pretty straight forward? Does the belt even seem like it might be the problem?
I know its alot of noob questions but its helping me figure out whats going on, so thanks.
You want me to take the belt off line up the marks and then start it to see if that was the problem right? To take the belt off I have to take off the crank pulley that powers the accessories belt correct? Is it all pretty straight forward? Does the belt even seem like it might be the problem?
I know its alot of noob questions but its helping me figure out whats going on, so thanks.
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evolutionmovement
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- Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2003 11:20 pm
- Location: Beverly, MA
Don't worry about TDC, just rotate the crank so that the | mark points up and see if the cams' | marks also point up vertically. If they don't all point up, your timing is off. Don't worry about the painted lines on the belt, ideally the mechanic used them to line it all up easily, but that's assuming too much and the engine doesn't care what's painted on the belt as long as all the | marks on the pulleys are aligned vertically.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
There is a mark on the crankshaft pulley the will line up with the Timing marks on the center cover. The cams line up with the notches in the back of the timing belt cover on either end. The crank should be lined up with the "0" mark (SEE PHOTO) and then the cams should both line up with their respective notches.
92wagon (wife's)
92 5mtwagon white(recently re-aquired)
92 sedan (sold)
91 ss no mods (sold)
88 GL Wagon (broken)
92 5mtwagon white(recently re-aquired)
92 sedan (sold)
91 ss no mods (sold)
88 GL Wagon (broken)
I wouldn't recommend using the pulley for checking the timing. Pull the pulley & center cover off, and check the mark on the crank gear. You want to use the mark on the back of the gear, not the one on the front.
Here's a pic
Here's a pic
Josh
surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT
If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT
If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
Yup, just unbolts. However it may be a pain to get undone. If you have a manual trans. Stick the car in 5th, have someone stand on the brakes, while you break it loose.
On an auto trans car, you need to stick a breaker bar or pry bar in the back of the flex plate through the access cover in the passenger side of the engine bell housing. This will keep the engine from turning over while you loosen the crank pulley.
When you reinstall the crank pulley, it needs to be torqued to 110-120 ft-lbs. Almost all the manuals have this incorrect which leads to the pullies coming off and screwing up the crank keyway, pulley, and sometimes the crank.
On an auto trans car, you need to stick a breaker bar or pry bar in the back of the flex plate through the access cover in the passenger side of the engine bell housing. This will keep the engine from turning over while you loosen the crank pulley.
When you reinstall the crank pulley, it needs to be torqued to 110-120 ft-lbs. Almost all the manuals have this incorrect which leads to the pullies coming off and screwing up the crank keyway, pulley, and sometimes the crank.
Josh
surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT
If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT
If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
TDC = Top Dead Center, #1 cylinder. The piston is at the top of it's stroke... there's usually a degree or two of crank rotation where the piston does not move, so they mark the crank/pulley as the others have shown.dsm_luck wrote:Ok what does TDC mean, and how do i do it?
Alternate method: pull the spark plug, and stick a long pencil, straw, etc. into the hole and rotate the motor. When the stick stops coming out, that's TDC. Just make sure whatever you use is long enough that you don't drop it into the cylinder!
Jerry
'04 Passat GLS 4Motion 5MT (Subaru by VW)
'86 Vanagon Syncro Camper Garage Queen
'04 Passat GLS 4Motion 5MT (Subaru by VW)
'86 Vanagon Syncro Camper Garage Queen
Ok so I haven't had much time to do anything with the car lately but I did have a chance to look it over real quick. I didnt have time to take off the crank pulley and line the crank notch strait up, but I did turn it until the pulley line was pointing up. What I noticed was that the left side (looking from front) cam pulley was strait up also, but when I looked at the right side one, the notch was 4 to 5 teeths back of the crank and left side one. Even if the crank pulley wasnt showing the correct timing, wouldnt the two camshaft pulleys still be in alignment?