lets figure it out

thehookeup · Post by **thehookeup** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:22 am

ok so, 04 wrx.
Today at work I was brought in a 2004 wrx 2.0L 49,000 miles. It had a boost gauge, perrin downpipe, thats all it had. The car came in for a 60K service.
60k service includes:
Air filter,MAF cleaning,, fuel filter, spark plugs, coolant flush, brake flush, tire rotation and oil change if needed.

Story:
The car was cold, it had been sitting outside our building all night. It ran for 30 secs. Which is the time it takes to drive from the street into my Bay. The car never warmed up.
I like to save time and multitask when i have a fairly big service. So i first remove the radiator cap, coolant came spraying out at me. It was a very rich rich green with globs of brown nasty oil.
After noticing the oil in the coolant i waited to do most of the service, if in fact something was wrong.
I decided to do a compression test on all 4 cylinders, compression leak down test, Cooling system pressure test, cooling system gas test, and used my scan tool to see if there was anything abnormal in the memory.
The check engine light was not on when the car came in. There were no hard codes. But in the Pending codes, there was a misfire on cyl #4. And still the light has not come on.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-spark plugs looked perfect
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Short term Fuel trim in ecu at time of misfire #4:
+5% idle
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-vacuum:
@ idle 21in
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-compression is as follows:
#1- 165 psi
#2- 155 psi
#3- 162 psi
#4- 132 psi
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Cooling system holds 12--15--20 psi for longer than 5 mins. Never lost pressure during the three tests
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Compression leak down test, on cylinder with lowest compression-

With the piston at top dead center on the compression stroke. I put 100 psi to the cylinder and the tester said it WAS leaking 80%

Again i did the test. With the piston at top dead center on the compression stroke @ 100 psi the cylinder was leaking 28%

The third test was just like the last two but it read 100 psi @ 67% leaking.
Never did the crank rotate. Also never could you hear air coming through the intake manifold, exhaust manifold. Or bubbling coolant system. And no sound from the PCV system.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Cooling system contamination test-
With my coolant tester (changing color tester)

The blue dye in the tester will turn yellow if there are Gasoline combustion gases in the coolant.

The blue dye will turn green if there are Diesel combustion gases in the coolant.

The results of test were that our blue test dye turned to green. Unmistakeable green
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------condition of engine oil was very good, but it was 2 qts low. it was good just not enough of it, and not watery.
No outside oil leaks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Try diagnosing it with the info you have. The results of all the tests are the exact way they are. no funny wording. I have a feeling that ive got the answer. But i wanna see what you guys can come up with. i dont think i missed anything. But who knows maybe i did. Ill probably end up tearing the motor out, and finding the exact reason for the oil being in the coolant. Anyone wanna take a stab at it and see if anybody figures it out based on this stuff.
Then ill post the results what actually was happening.

kleinkid · Post by **kleinkid** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:31 pm

Damaged/broken rings on piston #4, or, not.

Imprezive · Post by **Imprezive** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:09 pm

That leakdown number is baaad, even for a car thats cold. For comparison, after I had put about 5k on my rebuilt legacy 22t engine i had about 6-7% leakdown in all 4 cylinders, I had let it run for maybe a minute to get some heat in it. Did you try slightly rocking the piston to make sure the rings were seating when you did the leakdown?

Do you have a stethoscope? With that kinda of leakage you've got to be able to hear an air leak coming from somewhere.

Leaky rings would explain the leakage, and could result in oil being pushed into the coolant system if there is a blown headgasket. Is there excessive oil in the intake system?

Also, what specific chemicals does that coolant contamination setup test for? Those things aren't fool proof.

Obviously if the car hadn't heated up, the cooling system should not be pressurized yet, which means pressure is being pumped into the system via a source that normally wouldn't. Most likely its a piston doing it, which could be the result of a blown head gasket. The only fact that detracts from this is the fact that the coolant system hold pressure, although 20psi may not be enough to push through the crack in the head gasket, or maybe at least not enough when its cold.

kleinkid · Post by **kleinkid** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:23 pm

Imprezive--you have a good discussion of the event, but you didn't state what your prediction of what the ultimate finding will be. So what is your answer?

GodSquadMandrake · Post by **GodSquadMandrake** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:37 pm

It sounds like some retard beat the crap out of his car.

It was driven hard while low on oil and piston #4 suffered the worst because it always runs leaner than the rest. So the cylinder walls are scored and or there is a broken or damaged compression ring. This cylinder was probably detonating and cracked or damaged the fire ring on the headgasket and when you run the engine it's pushing oil into the coolant.

Either way that motor is toast.

SLODRIVE · Post by **SLODRIVE** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:50 pm

Bad headgasket and/or cracked head at the very least, and at that point it's not at all unlikely that the #4 cylinder could have piston/ring/cyl.wall trouble. There's no doubt the LH head has to come off, and I'm also betting the engine is wasted.

I wanna know what you find though

gijonas · Post by **gijonas** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:24 pm

The head is cracked,and then probably other suff as well.

555BCTurbo · Post by **555BCTurbo** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:28 am

I strongly doubt the head is cracked...

I've never seen a cracked Subaru head...

I say slightly burned valve

SLODRIVE · Post by **SLODRIVE** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:21 am

How would a burnt valve pressurize the cooling system and put oil in the anti-freeze? No way.

gijonas · Post by **gijonas** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:09 pm

I strongly doubt the head is cracked...

I've never seen a cracked Subaru head...

I say slightly burned valve

I have seen a few, and thus it does happen.Yeah it takes doing something stupid like filling an overheated engine with cool water but stupidity is alive and well in the world.

X2 on not seeing how a burnt valve could cause most of the symptoms here,unless accompanied by a crcked head of course

555BCTurbo · Post by **555BCTurbo** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:17 pm

I didn't read the entire thread...didn't see the oil/coolant mixing issue...

So yeah...burnt valve wouldn't mix oil/water

kingbobdole · Post by **kingbobdole** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:40 pm

+1 on a combo problem... One thing I like to do is to put my coolant pressure tester on the car and then, without pressure, warm it up. If it breaks 15 PSI or so before the T-stat opens, it's toast.

thehookeup · Post by **thehookeup** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:59 am

Hey guys sorry for the belated reply. been a bit busy. Anyway as a response to the questions:

-All of the CLT tests were listened to with my stethoscope, after about ten seconds of listening with my ears i wasnt convinced. i just didnt believe it. so thats when i went for my stethoscope .

-The contamination test is for Gasoline: HC's & CO's
Diesel: HC's & CO's
Oil: HC's & CO's
To make sure i didnt actually contaminate my testing kit. I made another 6 inch extension to insure just Combustion gases enter and not liquid coolant itself

Though i have never seen a cracked head on a subaru im sure it has happened. Going off what i have been told the car has never been overheated. Unfortunately I have to take that information as 100% truth. But i always keep a little doubt. If the car has never been over heated then the only way for a cyl head to be cracked, is if the piston had a "meeting" with anything above it. But the car is running too good for something like that to have happened. Who knows i have been wrong before. Most certainly the motor needs to come apart.

The cooling system never built pressure while warming up. But will hold pressure. On the other hand it blew coolant out at me after 30 secs of running and never warming up. I know that my all of my gauges and tools are 99% accurate. Good quality snap on equipment.

---------------------
Aside from this diagnostic challenge. I do appreciate the nice input. I think Its been awhile since there have been good discussions like this. Kinda brings out some team work and gets some brains moving again. Hopefully it will continue in other threads. I dont like forums like nasioc because the horrible feedback, rude people, and typical "I know everything guy". Here people tend to be more humble, and willing to think through a problem, and give positive response. lets keep that up.

Thanks,
Andrew

SILINC3R · Post by **SILINC3R** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:36 am

ahhh so i opened my radiator cap and heard kind of like a hissing sound or sucking sound. and when i lefted the cap what looked like mud came out of it. this cant be good what the heck did i do.

thehookeup · Post by **thehookeup** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:44 am

SILINC3R wrote:ahhh so i opened my radiator cap and heard kind of like a hissing sound or sucking sound. and when i lefted the cap what looked like mud came out of it. this cant be good what the heck did i do.

ouch. wait till the car is completely cool. take the radiator cap off and have someone start the car. and see what happens. When was the last time you checked your coolant? are you abnormally low on oil?

SILINC3R · Post by **SILINC3R** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:50 am

i think i flushed the radiator like a year or so ago and i added 2 quarts of oil today

thehookeup · Post by **thehookeup** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:57 am

SILINC3R wrote:i think i flushed the radiator like a year or so ago and i added 2 quarts of oil today

id be suspicious, do that cold test tomorrow and see what happens. then let us know

SILINC3R · Post by **SILINC3R** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:02 am

the car was cooled when i opened it. it didnt spray it out like your did however

thehookeup · Post by **thehookeup** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:50 am

well as a bit of an update on this thread. The customer brought his car back in today, to talk more about some of the symptoms that this thread is about. The customer felt that he should take it to the dealer, because he was within 1k of his warranty ending. He took it to Carr Subaru. I have always had the best respect for that dealership. I used to work there and there were more than a dealership's fair share of great techs.
I told the customer to ask them to perform all the tests that i did. The dealer put their scan tool on the car, and saw a P0420(catalytic inefficiency) code. After racking up his car on the lift, they told him, that he doesn't have a catalytic convertor. which couldn't be farther from the truth. He has two cats that are unmistakably catalytic convertors. Then the dealer does the same "Cooling system contamination test" that i did. The customer asked that it be done in front of him so he could understand better. The dealer did this test using the overflow tank. Now when the radiator cap has not lifted there will be no warm or fresh coolant in the over flow tank. Not to mention there are too many holes in the overflow tank that allow more than enough fresh air to make this test give a false reading. No new coolant entered the bottle during the test that they performed.
All and all the dealership voided his; warranty, did an inaccurate test, and read a check engine light. Then had the nerve to charge him $142.00 for nothing to be done.(his check engine light was in pending codes it wasn't even on)
I am pretty irritated with this. And Im not irritated about the problem he is having with his car, but the fact that i recommended this dealership and they for the most part stole his money. They did no compression test, leak down test, or accurate Cooling system contamination test. Personally it drives me crazy when people in this industry are dishonest, lazy, uneducated. I hate the stereo types that go along with this job. I take a lot of pride in what i do, I try to meet every customer myself. Some of you know where I work, I would rather not say. Its not about me being right or wrong, or that dealership being right or wrong. Its about being honest and giving that customer what he paid for and then some.
Im sure now that they have voided his warranty, and that the next time(if he ever goes back to them which i highly doubt) that is motor will be bad and he should get a new one.
-End rant--------------------------------------------------------------------------

But it looks like he is going to drive it for a little while longer and we will see if the car gets worse or overheats soon. Then we will more than likely tear that 2.0L apart and drop in a 2.5L Either way when I see the problem, i will take pics and tell you guys all about it.

beatersubi · Post by **beatersubi** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:08 am

You'd think in our current economic climate there'd be less tolerence for that kind of complacency/incompetence. But I can see how SOA would want to pay for fewer warranty repairs. Not that that makes the dealership's action any less wrong.

SILINC3R · Post by **SILINC3R** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:44 am

i sir are honorable. i agree with giving 110+ percent even if you only need to give 50-70 percent. the world needs more honest and hard working people that actually take pride in there work. it makes work more enjoyable as well as rewarding. however it is very hard to do so when everyone else may not be on the same path in which it is here where you have to challenge yourself to keep up the good work. i am lucky enough that i will be soon leaving my work of 4 years that i kind of grew up in to work with The Coast Guard were i hope people will have the same determination that i have to learn and do a task at hand and not do it just because they have to.

sorry, end rant

GodSquadMandrake · Post by **GodSquadMandrake** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:39 pm

Props to you guys for doing honest work. I hate it when people are lazy and dishonest. This world sucks sometimes but there are some good people out there and it makes life wonderful sometimes.

kimokalihi · Post by **kimokalihi** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:48 pm

-compression is as follows:
#1- 165 psi
#2- 155 psi
#3- 162 psi
#4- 132 psi

Pretty sure that's way too much difference in PSI on #4. 132 is low.

When you did the leakdown test did you listen to the exhaust, intake and oil fill tube to see where it was leaking?

I'm not sure how much different the specs are for that motor but in my 91 factory service manual for the EJ22T it says standard compression should be 199 PSI. Minimum allowable compression is 156.4 PSI. Maximum allowable compression difference is 14.2 PSI between any two cylinders. Looks like your compression difference is 33 PSI!

kimokalihi · Post by **kimokalihi** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:15 pm

thehookeup wrote: I hate the stereo types that go along with this job. I take a lot of pride in what i do, I try to meet every customer myself.

I know what you mean. Unfortunately stereotypes generally start for a reason. I don't trust any shop with my car. So I learned to work on it myself not just to save money, if I trusted someone I might pay them to do something I can't do but I don't know any shops that I trust so I do all the work myself.

I had an 89 toyota pickup. The motor blew and we got a rebuilt motor from an engine rebuilder place. My step dad and my friend's dad put it in. The engine started to have this weird problem where it would jerk constantly when you pushed the gas in. But only when the engine was warmed up. I was a member of pirate4x4 forum and they kept saying it was either a leak in the intake tube or the MAF was bad. I tested the MAF, switched it out with 2 other ones and nothing. Finally I got frustrated and spent like $300 on a new MAF and still had the problem.

Then I decided that my knowledge of engines and the help of the toyota community online weren't enough to diagnose the problem. So I took it to a shop that was recommended to me. Pretty decent professional and clean looking shop. I explained the problem to them in detail and left the truck with them. They called me up a day or two later and said it was all fixed and they had tested the MAF and then traced the wiring harness back to the ECM and found bent pins on my ECM connector which they fixed.

I thought this was pretty odd because no one had messed with the ECM before. But nevertheless they said it was fixed so I went on down there to pick it up. Paid them about $180 and started to head home. Not a mile down the road and it starts jerking again like it's out of gas and running on fumes.

I took it home and parked it and drove my parents vehicles to school. It sat for a long time. I didn't have the money to be wasting on shops to rip me off. I was 17.

Eventually my parents said I had to get rid of the truck. It needed a new clutch because I had wheeled it til the clutch was so far gone it wouldn't go up a hill. So I decided to replace the clutch and sell the truck and let someone else figure out the problem. I removed the tranny and was about to put the new clutch in when I noticed a coolant pipe on the back of the engine was leaking so I tried tightening the bolts and it just kept turning but never got tight. So I ended up pulling the motor so I could drill it out and rethread the hole.

When I was pulling the motor I decided since it was out I should trace the harness myself and see if I could find something. Sure enough the harness was melted and the MAF wire was grounding on the exhaust recirculation pipe. I fixed the wire and got the leak fixed. Put a new clutch in it and got everything back together. Started it up and let it warm up and took it for a drive and the problem was solved. The truck ran better than I had ever seen it run before. And I still had to sell it. I wish I still had that truck.

Bottom line is, that shop straight up lied to me and I hate them. Made up some bullshit story about bent pins on the ECM and charged me $180 for nothing.

I'll never go to another shop again. Unless it's for machining an engine since I don't have the tools or knowledge to do so.

I guess in the end it's good though. I've learned how to do a lot of things on cars since then. I've also saves countless thousands of dollars not paying other people to work on my car that I don't trust.

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lets figure it out

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