RJ93SS wrote: mike said dyno results on the 14psi were
180whp / 205tq. that being said, sti's put down 180-200 whp on the same dyno!
Those STI numbers seem a bit on the low side, since a 2008 STI is suppose to make 305hp@6000rpm. Granted, that's not WHP, but even still... Examples of dyno charts:
IDK...comparing one dyno to another can get you in trouble. It's a known fact that different brands of dynos read differently, and correction factors also vary from shop to shop. There can easily be a 10% difference in HP/TQ from 2 different shops. The only way to make a fair comparison to an STi would be to test on the same dyno at the same shop, preferably on the same day.
That said, those are some GREAT numbers for that chip! Stage 1, right?
http://www.slodriveracing.com
-92 SS 5MT- EJ20H swap, Haltech standalone ECU, TD04, FXT TMIC, 3" exhaust, STi/AGX struts, JDM 5-speed, 4.111 LSD rear, Blitz EBC, etc.
-'93 L Wagon - Pink Roll Cage - "Dirty Leg"
-And more!
If you are going to compare, definitely use the same dyno for serious apples-to-apples. Location has as much to do with it as the mechanical properties of the machine.
1991 SS build thread: http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=40430
RJ93SS wrote: mike said dyno results on the 14psi were
180whp / 205tq. that being said, sti's put down 180-200 whp on the same dyno!
Those STI numbers seem a bit on the low side, since a 2008 STI is suppose to make 305hp@6000rpm. Granted, that's not WHP, but even still... Examples of dyno charts:
IDK...comparing one dyno to another can get you in trouble. It's a known fact that different brands of dynos read differently, and correction factors also vary from shop to shop. There can easily be a 10% difference in HP/TQ from 2 different shops. The only way to make a fair comparison to an STi would be to test on the same dyno at the same shop, preferably on the same day.
That said, those are some GREAT numbers for that chip! Stage 1, right?
For those interested here's more info on the tune:
Mike @ Revetronix did his job and knows his stuff, but my car still isn't 100% due to some issues specific to my car, that Mike and I are still working thru (Mike thinks these are Timing related). We just ran out of time on Saturday to check everything.
We starting tuning about 10a.m. Mike had his laptop w/tools to view the ECU's parameters and do data logging.
Initially, we found an area to do low-speed testing, where we'd do some part-throttle runs, pull the chip, Mike would re-program, reinsert the chip and do some more.
We then starting doing 3rd gear (w/my 4EAT) testing up a hill (the Fraser bridge),dialing in the boost settings, AFR, etc. Using the same procedure as above.
We got the chip 95+% done and it was time to head to the Mustang dyno in Coquitlam near Vancouver, BC. Since the shop charged by the hour we did multiple pulls over about an hour and a half.
We did 2nd and 3rd gear pulls, w/limited success as I kept having an oscillation in my boost from 12-15psi and it would hang between 4K and 5K RPM when accelerating.
I WANT TO EMPHASIZE that I'm convinced the issues are specific to my car; NOT Mike's tuning.
Mike reprogrammed the chip between pulls, too. We tested w/the hood closed, a big fan blowing on the front, and sprayed water on the TMIC between pulls.
In 2nd gear (Manual button locked) it would pull strongly to 6200 w/the hanging between 4K and 5K.
In 3rd gear (locked in w/the Manual button) it would vary by 2-5+ psi and the RPM would 'hang' around 4500 and then slowly climb to 5200 ish and I shut it down as it seemed to sit there and go no further......Running on the dyno was intimidating - w/the noise of the dyno and car, it's tough to keep your foot in it....I actually ran it harder on the street.
Numbers are incomplete, but we did see 180HP/205ft.lbs on one pull; the majority were around 170HP. These were all about 14psi. I'll post dyno sheets when available...but they won't look pretty due to the oscillations.
On the way back to Mike's we finished up the testing and as noted the intake hose popped off - it was the 1st time that's happened in the 3 months I've had my TD04 and TMIC. We cleaned it up, tightened it down and the car was/is consistently pulling 16+ psi (which is right where it should be for the Stage 2 - 17psi tune). It was likely coming loose during testing, but since we tested w/the hood down, we didn't notice it.
Mike and I both wish we could've put it back on the dyno. I'm not going to make up numbers, but consider what is possible w/16 vs. 14 psi, and a solid TMIC/Intake connection!
On the way home I took advantage of the many hills between Seattle and Spokane. The car still has a ~2 psi variance occasionally, and still hangs a bit, but runs REALLY well.
Also, I got ~20MPG and that includes climbing hills w/boost.
I would use my info as a reference point - not gospel- as my car has a hack for a mechanic (me), but the potential is there, and this chip in a well-prepped car will Rock.
So, the good news is this chip is almost ready for prime-time and will make very good numbers.
Please contact Mike about the due date for the Stage 2-TD04 chip.
The day was overwhelming - my head almost exploded w/all I learned! But a fun experience, for sure.
P.S.I'm not sure I agree w/the STi comparison, but <'08 WRX? Yes.
Turbo Subies:
'87 GL-10 Turbo - SOLD
'90 BJ EJ22T/DOHC & 5speed swap - SOLD
'04 FXT, Forged internals, VF39, STI TMIC, Cobb AP- SOLD
'93 Legacy SS - 5-speed, SOLD :-(
'02 WRX -SOLD
'96 BD-turbo'd-SOLD
'98 SF - NA-T
The Yellow injectors, what model are they from? Did you have to do anything special to run them off the stock ECU?
Plugs/gap - I have been playing with this, with my current setup the NGK's seem to like it between .030 and .040, but I have not finished all my experimentation.
1991 SS build thread: http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=40430
ScottyS wrote:
The Yellow injectors, what model are they from? Did you have to do anything special to run them off the stock ECU?
Plugs/gap - I have been playing with this, with my current setup the NGK's seem to like it between .030 and .040, but I have not finished all my experimentation.
I updated my info above. I don't know the year, but found this injector INFO (edit: this chart's info is likely incorrect.)
I ran the 480's (EDIT: Orig. listed as 440's) on my stock ECU for approx. 400 miles, until I got the chip. Crappy mpg, slow acceleration and bogged when cold, but still ran.
Mike @ Revtronix wants me to try the .026 gap and see if helps/fixes the issues I described....maybe too much air and it needs the smaller gap. This fixed a similar issue w/a VF11.
Last edited by wtdash on Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
Turbo Subies:
'87 GL-10 Turbo - SOLD
'90 BJ EJ22T/DOHC & 5speed swap - SOLD
'04 FXT, Forged internals, VF39, STI TMIC, Cobb AP- SOLD
'93 Legacy SS - 5-speed, SOLD :-(
'02 WRX -SOLD
'96 BD-turbo'd-SOLD
'98 SF - NA-T
That would also explain the bogging and shitty mileage. The stock EM should handle the 440s just fine. Maybe a tad rich at full throttle.
~Spencer
94 Legacy Turbo (550 Robtune/ej20h v2 Sti RA drivetrain)
94 Legacy Ti Wagon (5mt ej22e)
91 rhd Legacy GT Wagon (factory 5mt, ej20g)
93 rhd Legacy GT type S2 Sedan (4eat, ej20g)
91 rhd Legacy Ti Type S 1.8
03 Lincoln LS V8 Sport
08 300 SRT8
And I just checked. ej20k yellows are 480cc... I suppose the car may run with them, just not that well, the stock em can trim +/- 20% from what I heard. Which puts the 440s right within the boundaries.
Ahem, with that said... the uh, Chip, should fix that
~Spencer
94 Legacy Turbo (550 Robtune/ej20h v2 Sti RA drivetrain)
94 Legacy Ti Wagon (5mt ej22e)
91 rhd Legacy GT Wagon (factory 5mt, ej20g)
93 rhd Legacy GT type S2 Sedan (4eat, ej20g)
91 rhd Legacy Ti Type S 1.8
03 Lincoln LS V8 Sport
08 300 SRT8
Hmmmm, I'm starting to have my doubts about my injectors' size!
My injectors were flow-tested at 40 psi - see THIS.
I've read HERE that the pressure tested determines the flow-rate, which I thought was standardized, but apparently some test @ 2.5 bar and others @ 3.0 bar....mine were tested @ 40psi = 2.75 bar.
Yes, the chip should be able to handle the 480cc, but has to be programmed.....but I'll check w/Revtronix!
Per Revtronix:
Yes, it does sound like you've actually got 480cc injectors. Flow rate increases with pressure. At the standard rating of 43.5 psi, your injectors flow right around 480cc. This can be easily reprogrammed without testing. This ...... does explain why I had to reduce fuel by 10% from the VF11 tune going by the dyno's wideband. If I had programmed for the 480cc setting, fuel would have been dead on right from the beginning and we wouldn't have needed a wideband at all! This also wouldn't cause the oscillations <that occurred during dyno testing>.
Stock fuel pressure is 43.5 psi for the turbo Legacy, 36.3 psi for non-turbo.
Last edited by wtdash on Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Turbo Subies:
'87 GL-10 Turbo - SOLD
'90 BJ EJ22T/DOHC & 5speed swap - SOLD
'04 FXT, Forged internals, VF39, STI TMIC, Cobb AP- SOLD
'93 Legacy SS - 5-speed, SOLD :-(
'02 WRX -SOLD
'96 BD-turbo'd-SOLD
'98 SF - NA-T
Adam West wrote:For us less mechanical folks what's the science behind the spark plug gap changes? Or at least the theory???
In a nutshell...Under high boost conditions, and especially with the accompanying rich mixture, the spark from the plug can essentially be "blown out" if the gap is too large.
The converse of this can be found in many mid-late '70s GM cars...They ran under 8:1 compression and really leaned out the mixtures to pass emissions; thus they commonly used .060" gaps, sometimes even .080".
http://www.slodriveracing.com
-92 SS 5MT- EJ20H swap, Haltech standalone ECU, TD04, FXT TMIC, 3" exhaust, STi/AGX struts, JDM 5-speed, 4.111 LSD rear, Blitz EBC, etc.
-'93 L Wagon - Pink Roll Cage - "Dirty Leg"
-And more!
If your using the Stock EM it should. It may not make the best use of them, but theoretically it should be fine.
~Spencer
94 Legacy Turbo (550 Robtune/ej20h v2 Sti RA drivetrain)
94 Legacy Ti Wagon (5mt ej22e)
91 rhd Legacy GT Wagon (factory 5mt, ej20g)
93 rhd Legacy GT type S2 Sedan (4eat, ej20g)
91 rhd Legacy Ti Type S 1.8
03 Lincoln LS V8 Sport
08 300 SRT8
~Spencer
94 Legacy Turbo (550 Robtune/ej20h v2 Sti RA drivetrain)
94 Legacy Ti Wagon (5mt ej22e)
91 rhd Legacy GT Wagon (factory 5mt, ej20g)
93 rhd Legacy GT type S2 Sedan (4eat, ej20g)
91 rhd Legacy Ti Type S 1.8
03 Lincoln LS V8 Sport
08 300 SRT8
Subaru_Nation555 wrote:Any comments on MPG with the stage 1 chip?
i got 375km on the first tank with no chip. it looks like i'll get around 360 to 370 on this tank. that being said im boosting around 13 right now and this tank was alot of city driving. these results are to inaccurate at the moment to tell. my next tank will give me a better idea
Last edited by RJ93SS on Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
