So That's Why We Love First Gens...

Struts, spring, anti-rollbars, braces and the like.

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Soul Shinobi
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So That's Why We Love First Gens...

Post by Soul Shinobi »

I originally posted this at SL-i.net under the title "Moved from a 92 BC to a 98 BK; My Impression, Your Thoughts?"

Introduction:
It's sadly time to put my 1992 Legacy L Sedan (BC) 5MT (271,000 miles) to bed, and in pursuit of practicality (well actually it was just $300 so I couldn't say no) I've pick up a surprisingly-pretty-good-condition-for-the-price 1998 Legacy L Wagon (BK) 5MT (204,000 miles). And then I rebuilt the engine. It will probably fail catastrophically. So needless to say this isn't the car of my dreams and I don't want to dump a whole lot of money into it, but I certainly have some plans and goals in store (what I'd really like is a 1999 Legacy L wagon in good condition, first year of the phase II 2.2L, last year before the chassis gained 300 pounds).

Image

Driving Impressions:
On to business. Now I threw that '92 BC around a lot in the snow (my favorite pastime!) and in the rain. My friend who happens to own the same '98 BK that I do now always wanted to drive it. There's nothing special about it, he just liked how it felt. I now know what he was onto; this '98 BK is soft. It's not god-awful, in fact it's nice that it's quieter, but there's definitely less chassis communication to the driver. The average guy is pleased by this perhaps, but me? I'm scared.

I took the BK down a downward on-ramp in the rain as I have my BC, and where the BC's rear end would step out gradually; letting me know by a change in vibration in the rear; the BK holds traction. Fine, it's got a rear sway bar, the freakin' BC didn't (which I must say taught me to balance the car's weight well). But when I push the BK a little faster, then the rear steps out. I didn't feel it. I though I felt something, I'm not sure; but I sure as hell saw it as the car began to rotate.

Maye it's the tires, maybe it's the alignment? Surely it's tweaked a bit when the car was $300 from some New Hampshire woodsman. Well indeed the front tires are worn and the rear's are different and near new, but setting the pressure 36/34 F/R should keep things predictable. As for the alignment, it's likely tweaked, but even so my BC's alignment is fucked, so I know how to handle that, that's not the issue; the car isn't talking to me.

Similarly, in the dry, I plowed into an upward off-ramp at speed in the BK, moderate braking, turn, a little tire squeal, and copious understeer; and scarier still is that again I had to see it before I felt it significantly. In my BC I could feel the tires straining under pressure, not a lot but I could, and in the same situation the turn in would have been sharper and the weight shift more complete on the BC.

Plans:
For starters I planned to some chassis reinforcement. Front and rear strut braces, I might shell out for the Whiteline rear with quick-release. Ideally I'd be putting good bushings in all-around, but it's just not worth the work right now, especially for this rusty BK. Endlinks all-around and a rear sway bar are planned, as well as steering rack bushings. Most importantly I need to do more to make the rear end talk to me. I don't want NVH (noise vibration and harshness) to take a leap, but a small increase is fine. So I assume that means that locking down the rear subframe is out of the question, but are there subframe bushing kits? Strut tops? This is where I need some help, I'm not sure where to go with mods. What do you guy think?

Thanks for reading. :grin:
-Nick
1992 BC Legacy L Sedan AWD 5MT 272,000 - Wish you the best
1998 BK Legacy L Wagon 5MT 234,000 miles - RIP
2002 SF Forester S Wagon 5MT 215,000 miles - Current winter sleigh
1986 FC Mazda RX-7 GXL Coupe 5MT 155,000 miles - Summer cruiser
jamal
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Post by jamal »

My 98 gt is way better to drive than my bc was. Even when I first got it, and only had my wheels and tires from the old car, I liked the way it handled. Then when I had pretty much the exact same suspension setup as the bc (since I took it all off), It was just more solid and composed. I think I'll attribute it all to a stiffer chassis and suspension bushings in better shape.
Soul Shinobi
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Post by Soul Shinobi »

Good to hear the newer chassis has potential. Maybe my L model got significantly softer suspension than the GT.
-Nick
1992 BC Legacy L Sedan AWD 5MT 272,000 - Wish you the best
1998 BK Legacy L Wagon 5MT 234,000 miles - RIP
2002 SF Forester S Wagon 5MT 215,000 miles - Current winter sleigh
1986 FC Mazda RX-7 GXL Coupe 5MT 155,000 miles - Summer cruiser
jamal
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Post by jamal »

could be. It has lower profile tires, bigger swaybars, and probably different struts and springs. I put some brand new GR2s on a 98 legacy l, and when I took it for a drive it was really not that great.

Right now I can't wait to get some stiff, sticky tires and see how my car does. Right now I'm on 225/50-16 falken ze912 all seasons and they are the limiting factor by far. I'm thinking a 17x8.5 or maybe 17x9, with 235/40 or 245/40s. Shouldn't take too much fender rolling.
Soul Shinobi
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Post by Soul Shinobi »

I wonder if there are chassis differences. You should also make note if you're talking about a wagon or sedan. What do you think of my potential mod list at the end, by the way?
-Nick
1992 BC Legacy L Sedan AWD 5MT 272,000 - Wish you the best
1998 BK Legacy L Wagon 5MT 234,000 miles - RIP
2002 SF Forester S Wagon 5MT 215,000 miles - Current winter sleigh
1986 FC Mazda RX-7 GXL Coupe 5MT 155,000 miles - Summer cruiser
jamal
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Post by jamal »

new group n or urethane bushings are great but they never end up at the top of my list.

Here's my order
alignment
tires
steering rack bushings (up this high because they're cheap)
rear swaybar
alk
struts/springs
front swaybar
endlinks
rear subframe lock bolts
misc chassis bracing
lateral link and trailing arm bushings
Soul Shinobi
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Post by Soul Shinobi »

Because this chassis is kind of rusty I'm not going to get into an ALK, struts and springs, and likely not bushings. The rest is very likely, especially tires and an alignment being at the top my list too. How would you judge the feedback you get from the chassis with each of those mods? How much does NVH increase by locking down the rear subframe? Hell just how hard is it to lock down the rear subframe?

EDIT: Okay I've done a lot of poking around. Installing the rear subframe lockdown bolts is a piece of cake it seems, and it does exactly what I want. Do kits for Imprezas fit fine or do I have to find a BK specific one?
-Nick
1992 BC Legacy L Sedan AWD 5MT 272,000 - Wish you the best
1998 BK Legacy L Wagon 5MT 234,000 miles - RIP
2002 SF Forester S Wagon 5MT 215,000 miles - Current winter sleigh
1986 FC Mazda RX-7 GXL Coupe 5MT 155,000 miles - Summer cruiser
Legacy777
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Post by Legacy777 »

The gc impreza one will work.
Josh

surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
Soul Shinobi
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Post by Soul Shinobi »

After much thinking and looking around my mod list looks like this so far:

Step 1, getting things straight:
-Brake pads and rotors (need them bad and rotors can effect alignment)
-Tires (alignment again)
-Steering rack bushings (Might effect alignment)
-Rear subframe lockdown bolts (seems it doesn't increase NVH as much as I thought)
-Alignment
Cost: ~$480

Step 2, reinforcement:
-Whiteline quick-release rear strut brace
-eBay front strut brace (I already have it)
-Stiffer pitch stop
-Whiteline Front of rear diff support lock
Cost: ~$230

Step 3, handling:
-Endlinks front and rear
-Rear swaybar
Cost: ~$200? (easy to find used so hard to say)
Last edited by Soul Shinobi on Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:53 pm, edited 6 times in total.
-Nick
1992 BC Legacy L Sedan AWD 5MT 272,000 - Wish you the best
1998 BK Legacy L Wagon 5MT 234,000 miles - RIP
2002 SF Forester S Wagon 5MT 215,000 miles - Current winter sleigh
1986 FC Mazda RX-7 GXL Coupe 5MT 155,000 miles - Summer cruiser
Legacy777
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Post by Legacy777 »

How are rotors going to affect alignment?

Steering rack bushings won't affect alignment.

Tires still won't affect the alignment, however the alignment is probably off, so it makes sense to do the alignment then.
Josh

surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
Soul Shinobi
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Post by Soul Shinobi »

I thought someone might bring these up. Certainly they're not big risks, I am just being thorough.

Rotors, if not mounted perfectly can have a dynamic effect on toe and camber, constantly changing as the wheel rotates. "So mount the disk right" you say. Certainly I will, but who's to say the ones on the car aren't screwed up? The tire wear certainly is screwed up, could be for a lot of reasons. "It's no enough to make a difference" you say, and I must admit I wouldn't know from experience, I'm just being anal.

Wasn't sure on steering rack bushings, just thought I'd play it safe.

The tires on the car now are two unmatched pairs, one set new and one set almost illegal (and unevenly worn between the two, at that). I think for my car it's a legitimate concern ("so he can make a sensible point!").
-Nick
1992 BC Legacy L Sedan AWD 5MT 272,000 - Wish you the best
1998 BK Legacy L Wagon 5MT 234,000 miles - RIP
2002 SF Forester S Wagon 5MT 215,000 miles - Current winter sleigh
1986 FC Mazda RX-7 GXL Coupe 5MT 155,000 miles - Summer cruiser
jamal
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Post by jamal »

the only thing on that list that is going to change the alignment is the subframe lock bolts, so you might want to put those in at step one.
As for the lock bolts, go with kartboy because they are easier to install with the separate insert. You may or may not be able to get them to thread into the chassis.

The rack bushings might put your steering wheel a bit crooked.



also rotors aren't likely to change anything.
Soul Shinobi
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Post by Soul Shinobi »

I just crawled under my car, freaking rust city. I know I'd be pushing my luck trying to get subframe lock bolts to catch, but I really want to try it. I didn't think they'd effect alignment, but better safe than sorry. :) I'll take your advice on two piece lock bolts.

I also suspect that steering rack bushings may tweak the toe setting.
-Nick
1992 BC Legacy L Sedan AWD 5MT 272,000 - Wish you the best
1998 BK Legacy L Wagon 5MT 234,000 miles - RIP
2002 SF Forester S Wagon 5MT 215,000 miles - Current winter sleigh
1986 FC Mazda RX-7 GXL Coupe 5MT 155,000 miles - Summer cruiser
jamal
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Post by jamal »

it will. you have to loosen the whole subframe and shift it around to get them in. it will shift your rear toe to the side.
Legacy777
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Post by Legacy777 »

Steering rack bushings are not going to affect toe. The rear subframe locks will.

As Jamal mentioned, you really have to loosen the four bolts holding the rear subframe to get the lock bolts aligned properly. I put these in when I did my AWD swap. They will increase NVH.
Josh

surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
Soul Shinobi
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Post by Soul Shinobi »

Alright, got it. I expect an increase in NVH, it's not a whole lot is it? Can you describe the change?
-Nick
1992 BC Legacy L Sedan AWD 5MT 272,000 - Wish you the best
1998 BK Legacy L Wagon 5MT 234,000 miles - RIP
2002 SF Forester S Wagon 5MT 215,000 miles - Current winter sleigh
1986 FC Mazda RX-7 GXL Coupe 5MT 155,000 miles - Summer cruiser
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Post by Legacy777 »

I have no real comparison because I went from FWD to AWD with a butt load of other suspension changes.
Josh

surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
jamal
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Post by jamal »

I put urethane outrigger bushings in and then did the lockbolts later.

the bushings added some drivetrain humming, especially on decel, but after putting in the bolts I didn't notice much of a change. It's possible the bolts alone would create a similar noise.

I do get a thunk on hard upshifts but that's a pretty common thing and I think it has more to do with the diff bushings than anything else.

Additionally an ALK is one of the best mods I've ever done. I didn't have any trouble installing it on my 93 a few years ago.
Soul Shinobi
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Post by Soul Shinobi »

From what I've read the polyurethane outrigger bushings (I am considering them), as well as rear diff mount bushings are supposed to cure that thud on upshifts. I'd check bolt tightness, just in case. It is also possible that having only the outrigger bushings concentrates the rear diff movement to the rear, but I've certainly never heard of that before.

The ALK is awesome, my friend got one for his '04 WRX at my suggestion. He said he's scared to feel out the limits of grip now, it's on rails. I didn't want to put that kind of money and work into this chassis that I might replace in a couple years.
-Nick
1992 BC Legacy L Sedan AWD 5MT 272,000 - Wish you the best
1998 BK Legacy L Wagon 5MT 234,000 miles - RIP
2002 SF Forester S Wagon 5MT 215,000 miles - Current winter sleigh
1986 FC Mazda RX-7 GXL Coupe 5MT 155,000 miles - Summer cruiser
jamal
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Post by jamal »

yeah, there is that. What was nice for me is that all the stuff I bought for the old legacy got taken off and put on the new one. The only thing extra I've bought are a fresh set of struts ($140), the lock bolts ($30), and some shifter bushings. I got the swaybars in exchange for doing some side work for a suspension shop.

So if you plan to have another subaru that isn't an 05+ legacy or 08+ impreza, most of the stuff you buy will interchange.
Soul Shinobi
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Post by Soul Shinobi »

Yeah, that was the idea, that anything I put on this car can be easily removed and put on another.
-Nick
1992 BC Legacy L Sedan AWD 5MT 272,000 - Wish you the best
1998 BK Legacy L Wagon 5MT 234,000 miles - RIP
2002 SF Forester S Wagon 5MT 215,000 miles - Current winter sleigh
1986 FC Mazda RX-7 GXL Coupe 5MT 155,000 miles - Summer cruiser
Soul Shinobi
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Post by Soul Shinobi »

Update time. The following mods have been installed:

-Steering rack bushings
-Front of rear diff support lock (outrigger bushings)
-Stiffer pitch stop
-Tires

Install Pending:
-Rear subframe lockdown bolts
-Alignment
-Cusco rear lower arm bar
-Shifter bushing

Purchase Pending:
-Brake pads and rotors
-Whiteline quick-release rear strut brace
-Endlinks front and rear
-Rear swaybar


So after installing the mods I have, the differences aren't large. I was hoping that good tires and playing around with pressures would make a bigger difference but the car still understeers at the limit. It's better, but not great. I think the rear end stiffness of my old sedan with rear strut brace helped a lot (even though it lacked a rear sway bar!). A rear strut brace may take precedence over brakes for me (just having good tires helped my braking more than I expected anyway).

As for the alignment, I actually went in for one when when I had the tires mounted. Long story short they told me everything was rusted and that they could only zero out the front toe for me. I made a post about that here. They're giving me 30 days to get things loose and they'll try again at no charge. I think I'll try to loosen the rear subframe to get my custom lockdown bolts in before I go back. In the mean time I'm giving all the suspension parts PB B'laster therapy.
-Nick
1992 BC Legacy L Sedan AWD 5MT 272,000 - Wish you the best
1998 BK Legacy L Wagon 5MT 234,000 miles - RIP
2002 SF Forester S Wagon 5MT 215,000 miles - Current winter sleigh
1986 FC Mazda RX-7 GXL Coupe 5MT 155,000 miles - Summer cruiser
206er
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Post by 206er »

the BJ's are incredibly flexible compared to a BG wagon imho.
1994 Touring Wagon: ruby mica, 5mt swapped
Soul Shinobi
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Post by Soul Shinobi »

I'm talking about my BC ('92 sedan) compared to my BK ('98 wagon, pretty much the same as BG, yeah). The sedans also have a trunk cage stock (horizontal steel bar behind the top of the rear seats) to keep the rear stiff, and then I added the rear strut brace. I have high hopes for a rear strut brace in my BK.
-Nick
1992 BC Legacy L Sedan AWD 5MT 272,000 - Wish you the best
1998 BK Legacy L Wagon 5MT 234,000 miles - RIP
2002 SF Forester S Wagon 5MT 215,000 miles - Current winter sleigh
1986 FC Mazda RX-7 GXL Coupe 5MT 155,000 miles - Summer cruiser
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