I'm looking into installing the stock air/water IC into my USDM 93
Legacy, and where i know a bit about air/air IC's, I know very
little about air/water IC's. My main question is this: Do I have to
install a seperate radiator for the intercooler? That would mean
piling up three radiators in the front of the car, right? The main
radiator, the A/C condenser, and the addition of another radiator
for the IC. This seems strange to me, therefore, is it possible to
run the water for the intercooler through the condenser if I ripped
out my A/C system and flushed it? Or is it possible to run coolant
through the IC by tapping off of the main radiator? Or am I just up
a creek, and forced to try and fit #3 in there.
Also, as a side note, do you really run water through an air/water
IC system, or do people end up using coolant?
Thanks for any help, I've read through hours of posts I've searched
to no avail.
-Mike (CO)
Air/water intercooler question.
Moderators: Helpinators, Moderators
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Nick Robinson
Air/water intercooler question.
Yep, you'll need 3 radiators. That's what mine has but the I/C radiator
isn't that big and you'll also need a pump. Not sure if you could use
the A/C condenser but I don't think using the radiator is a good idea. I
suspect you'd end up heating your intake charge rather than cooling it.
The Liberty RS I/C uses coolant, presumably for anti-corrosion purposes
but straight water is supposedly more efficient.
Nick (in Aust)
isn't that big and you'll also need a pump. Not sure if you could use
the A/C condenser but I don't think using the radiator is a good idea. I
suspect you'd end up heating your intake charge rather than cooling it.
The Liberty RS I/C uses coolant, presumably for anti-corrosion purposes
but straight water is supposedly more efficient.
Nick (in Aust)
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siryacho
Air/water intercooler question.
Thanks for the info Nick,
Yeah, I figured that might happen with the radiator, but I'm
still curious about the condenser. I know the stock IC radiator is
small, but that's part of the reason I don't want to go and get one
of those; it seems that many people go with the larger MRT IC
radiator, but I'm trying not to shell out that much cash. The A/C
condenser is substantially larger than the stock IC radiator, and I
never use the A/C anyway, so I thought this might be a reasonable
substitute. And oh yeah, I do have the stock pump coming soon.
-Mike
Yeah, I figured that might happen with the radiator, but I'm
still curious about the condenser. I know the stock IC radiator is
small, but that's part of the reason I don't want to go and get one
of those; it seems that many people go with the larger MRT IC
radiator, but I'm trying not to shell out that much cash. The A/C
condenser is substantially larger than the stock IC radiator, and I
never use the A/C anyway, so I thought this might be a reasonable
substitute. And oh yeah, I do have the stock pump coming soon.
-Mike
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Mark Ward_
Air/water intercooler question.
The I/C intercooler goes infront of the rad support. There is actually all the holes and cut outs etc to mount the intercooler properly on the US BC /BF legacies. BUT we got a bigger bumper here and does not allow room to fit in the factory spot. The difference is some "fins" on the back of the bumper. Take your grill out and look(You could notch these, but dont sue me later for it). The pump actually goes in the left hand fender well, up behind the plastic fender liner. You will notice a little "notch" in the chassis of the car just under the battery were the hoses run. It is easy enough to get the factory hoses from wreckers in New Zealand and then you dont have to fight with fitting hoses.
I can email you the source to buy the intercooler rad, pump, hoses etc at a good price from a wreckers in New Newland if you want. Or you can buy a uprated pump from Brett instead of upgrading later.
Mark
www.rrunracing.com
I can email you the source to buy the intercooler rad, pump, hoses etc at a good price from a wreckers in New Newland if you want. Or you can buy a uprated pump from Brett instead of upgrading later.
Mark
www.rrunracing.com
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Nick Robinson
Air/water intercooler question.
Hell, I'd ditch the IC before I got rid of the A/C but then it gets damn
hot here! What's the MRT IC radiator worth?
Nick
hot here! What's the MRT IC radiator worth?
Nick
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siryacho
Air/water intercooler question.
I'm not sure what MRT wants for the oversized radiator, but I
guarantee that it's a hell of a lot more than I really want to
spend. Hehe, I'm trying to go free here with the condenser, so
worst case scenario for me is to pick up the stock IC radiator from
a junk dealer for as cheap as I can, and that's only if I REALLY
have to!
Lookin' for enlightenment,
-Mike
guarantee that it's a hell of a lot more than I really want to
spend. Hehe, I'm trying to go free here with the condenser, so
worst case scenario for me is to pick up the stock IC radiator from
a junk dealer for as cheap as I can, and that's only if I REALLY
have to!
Lookin' for enlightenment,
-Mike
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ciper_
Air/water intercooler question.
Ill answer one question, "Or is it possible to run coolant through the IC by
tapping off of the main radiator?" Yes, thats how the system works normally!
I have seen two or three legacy sites where the owner designed his own
seperate radiator and pump system. The biggest advantage found was that a
large extra resovoir of water added a huge amount of additional heat
absortion capacity. Think of it like a buffer. You could run an amount of
boost that would normally produce too much heat with an air-air unit for a
short amount of time since the water will absorb and distribute this heat.
--
yOya
tapping off of the main radiator?" Yes, thats how the system works normally!
I have seen two or three legacy sites where the owner designed his own
seperate radiator and pump system. The biggest advantage found was that a
large extra resovoir of water added a huge amount of additional heat
absortion capacity. Think of it like a buffer. You could run an amount of
boost that would normally produce too much heat with an air-air unit for a
short amount of time since the water will absorb and distribute this heat.
--
yOya
-
subbyrs91
Air/water intercooler question.
Ill answer one question, "Or is it possible to run coolant through
the IC by tapping off of the main radiator?" Yes, thats how the
system works normally! NO, NO, NO that's NOT how it works....the IC
cooling system is totally separate from the engine cooling
system...it has it's own radiator & water pump..
the IC by tapping off of the main radiator?" Yes, thats how the
system works normally! NO, NO, NO that's NOT how it works....the IC
cooling system is totally separate from the engine cooling
system...it has it's own radiator & water pump..
-
ciper_
Air/water intercooler question.
Perhaps the page that I read had misinformation, but it showed that the
radiator cap for engine coolant had been moved to atop the interooler and
that the same fluid flowed through both systems.
Oh yeah, here is one of the sites I mentioned about creating this system
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~gavinp/airwater.htm
And about using the AC RADIATOR, it is possible!
Read this "Suitable radiators that can be used include large oil coolers,
car air conditioning condenser cores, and scrap domestic air conditioning
condensers." from
http://www.autospeed.com/A_0090/P_3/article.html
--
yOya
radiator cap for engine coolant had been moved to atop the interooler and
that the same fluid flowed through both systems.
Oh yeah, here is one of the sites I mentioned about creating this system
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~gavinp/airwater.htm
And about using the AC RADIATOR, it is possible!
Read this "Suitable radiators that can be used include large oil coolers,
car air conditioning condenser cores, and scrap domestic air conditioning
condensers." from
http://www.autospeed.com/A_0090/P_3/article.html
--
yOya
-
siryacho
Air/water intercooler question.
First off, I just want to say THANK YOU for all of your help.
Without boards like this, my car would still be in stock form
(gasp!) and I would have no confidence at all to do any of this
stuff. So thank you all.
On to the topic. Yes, subbyrs91, it's fairly apparent to me now
that the intercooler has its own system, and it would be counter-
effective to tie into the main radiator, because most likely, you'd
end up dragging engine-heated coolant through the intercooler.
Complete opposite of progress in any case. So scratch that.
The A/C condenser:
I know there's a couple of you that think I've lost my head, but
ripping out the A/C is of no concern to me. I live in Colorado
where humidity is virtually non-existant, so even on 90+ degree
days, I'm just driving around with my windows open. Even on a 1000
mile trip through South Dakota last summer, I still didn't use it.
So the comfort of having the A/C is a non-factor in my decision.
Douglas mentioned that I fill up the condenser and see how much
water it holds. This would obviously be a commitment to ripping out
all components of the A/C, but this might indeed be my course of
action. I figured that if I can't make it work with the condenser, I
can always order the right part, the stock IC radiator, and install
that. So I guess I've kinda got a failsafe backup.
Ciper, good idea with the extra, or larger resevoir for keeping more
water or coolant in the system. This makes total sense.
So here's my biggest question. Has nobody who has the stock
air/water IC setup tried any other radiators aside from the stock IC
rad or the MRT rad?
And here's another brainchild. Any way to use the hood scoop to
effectively cool the IC in conjunction with the water setup? You
know, just like an air/air, but with the water cooling it as well?
dah, whatever. Just thinking out loud.
-Mike
Without boards like this, my car would still be in stock form
(gasp!) and I would have no confidence at all to do any of this
stuff. So thank you all.
On to the topic. Yes, subbyrs91, it's fairly apparent to me now
that the intercooler has its own system, and it would be counter-
effective to tie into the main radiator, because most likely, you'd
end up dragging engine-heated coolant through the intercooler.
Complete opposite of progress in any case. So scratch that.
The A/C condenser:
I know there's a couple of you that think I've lost my head, but
ripping out the A/C is of no concern to me. I live in Colorado
where humidity is virtually non-existant, so even on 90+ degree
days, I'm just driving around with my windows open. Even on a 1000
mile trip through South Dakota last summer, I still didn't use it.
So the comfort of having the A/C is a non-factor in my decision.
Douglas mentioned that I fill up the condenser and see how much
water it holds. This would obviously be a commitment to ripping out
all components of the A/C, but this might indeed be my course of
action. I figured that if I can't make it work with the condenser, I
can always order the right part, the stock IC radiator, and install
that. So I guess I've kinda got a failsafe backup.
Ciper, good idea with the extra, or larger resevoir for keeping more
water or coolant in the system. This makes total sense.
So here's my biggest question. Has nobody who has the stock
air/water IC setup tried any other radiators aside from the stock IC
rad or the MRT rad?
And here's another brainchild. Any way to use the hood scoop to
effectively cool the IC in conjunction with the water setup? You
know, just like an air/air, but with the water cooling it as well?
dah, whatever. Just thinking out loud.
-Mike
-
siryacho
Air/water intercooler question.
SOB!!!!!!!!!
i've even read that article, but I think it was before I was
concerning myself with the radiator questions, so it didn't stick
out in my brain.
well, that's that, OUT GOES THE A/C!!!!!!!!!!!!!
hehe, here we go.
ciper, you rock.
-mike
i've even read that article, but I think it was before I was
concerning myself with the radiator questions, so it didn't stick
out in my brain.
well, that's that, OUT GOES THE A/C!!!!!!!!!!!!!
hehe, here we go.
ciper, you rock.
-mike
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INCEv@webtv.net
Air/water intercooler question.
Anybody ever thought about using 10 wt oil in these things? Dan
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Kam
Air/water intercooler question.
I believe some guys here in the UK have tried rads from a Rover Metro or Nissan Micra.
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Tim Schank
Air/water intercooler question.
I have been wondering about people running air/water intercooler myself and it
didn't make any sense to run it from the stock cooling system. I did some
calculations to verify this. I came up with the following results, this is
from the top of my head, I don't have the actual numbers if front of me. First
off, we have to look at the average operating temp of the cooling system. It
should be around 200 degrees F, so that would be the cooling temp of the IC.
Now we need to calculate the incoming temp the air. I think, I came out with a
temp of about 300 degrees if you acount for 70 degree ambient air with a 10 psi
of boost and some heat addition from the turbo.(thermodynamics seems so long
ago). This give about 100 degrees of cooling potential, but that is not really
possible because the cooling fluid volume is not infinite and therefore the
cooling fluid will heat up. A good heat transfer efficeincy maybe around 50%
my guess would be even lower for a small IC. So you are looking at a max of 50
degrees cooler probably more like 35. So if everything I have assumped is
correct then it doesn't seem worth it.
BTW, I am choosing to install an air/air ic for simplicity and the fact that a
friend gave me one for free.
One more thought, I know very little about A/C units, but why drain the the
A/C's heat exchanger? Could you run that fluid through the IC. Any thoughts on
this?
didn't make any sense to run it from the stock cooling system. I did some
calculations to verify this. I came up with the following results, this is
from the top of my head, I don't have the actual numbers if front of me. First
off, we have to look at the average operating temp of the cooling system. It
should be around 200 degrees F, so that would be the cooling temp of the IC.
Now we need to calculate the incoming temp the air. I think, I came out with a
temp of about 300 degrees if you acount for 70 degree ambient air with a 10 psi
of boost and some heat addition from the turbo.(thermodynamics seems so long
ago). This give about 100 degrees of cooling potential, but that is not really
possible because the cooling fluid volume is not infinite and therefore the
cooling fluid will heat up. A good heat transfer efficeincy maybe around 50%
my guess would be even lower for a small IC. So you are looking at a max of 50
degrees cooler probably more like 35. So if everything I have assumped is
correct then it doesn't seem worth it.
BTW, I am choosing to install an air/air ic for simplicity and the fact that a
friend gave me one for free.
One more thought, I know very little about A/C units, but why drain the the
A/C's heat exchanger? Could you run that fluid through the IC. Any thoughts on
this?
-
ob1poor
Air/water intercooler question.
yeah man that's what i was going to say, now that'd be cool(no pun
intended) if you could either rig up the a/c to use the fluid in
maybe like a coil around the air duct somehow in order to cool the
intake air or even maybe just run one of the a/c vents up to a
air/air fin type intercooler to give it a big boost of cold air(most
cases alot cooler than the outside air) or even just use the a/c vent
deal to cool the air/air ic. while at rest hmmm.... now that'd be
cool
intended) if you could either rig up the a/c to use the fluid in
maybe like a coil around the air duct somehow in order to cool the
intake air or even maybe just run one of the a/c vents up to a
air/air fin type intercooler to give it a big boost of cold air(most
cases alot cooler than the outside air) or even just use the a/c vent
deal to cool the air/air ic. while at rest hmmm.... now that'd be
cool
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siryacho
Air/water intercooler question.
I had thought of this as well, but it seems counteractive. You
would need to run the A/C compressor to keep it cool, and we all
know how it feels when that thing turns on, it's like hitting the
brakes! Hey, there's an idea... wire the compressor to turn on
when you hit the brakes -----> engine brakes!
hehe,
Mike.
would need to run the A/C compressor to keep it cool, and we all
know how it feels when that thing turns on, it's like hitting the
brakes! Hey, there's an idea... wire the compressor to turn on
when you hit the brakes -----> engine brakes!
hehe,
Mike.
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Z1Auto@aol.com
Air/water intercooler question.
the a/c compresor idea is an old one...it doesn't work.
Air water can be made to work very well..takes a lot of careful planning and is best for race applications where space is limited.
For a street car, simply for the sheer ease of design anf maintenance, air to air is more than enough, especially on a car that had no IC to begin with
BTW, not sure about teh BC's, but RS's and WRX's have a clutch that disengages the compressor when you go full throttle
Adam
Z-1 Performance
www.z1auto.com
(631)254-8277
Air water can be made to work very well..takes a lot of careful planning and is best for race applications where space is limited.
For a street car, simply for the sheer ease of design anf maintenance, air to air is more than enough, especially on a car that had no IC to begin with
BTW, not sure about teh BC's, but RS's and WRX's have a clutch that disengages the compressor when you go full throttle
Adam
Z-1 Performance
www.z1auto.com
(631)254-8277
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Josh Colombo
Air/water intercooler question.
The BC's A/C clutch does disengage at full throttle. It gets the signal to do this from the TPS.
Josh
Josh
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Z1Auto@aol.com
Air/water intercooler question.
cool...so then no real performance changed with A/C on vs of at WOT then.
So, can anyone confirm/deny where teh factory boost control solenoid is? How does a manual controller integrate witht eh stock unit? I know on WRX's, we get rid of the stock boost controller altogether as it casues issues. How about on a Legacy?
Adam
Z-1 Performance
www.z1auto.com
(631)254-8277
So, can anyone confirm/deny where teh factory boost control solenoid is? How does a manual controller integrate witht eh stock unit? I know on WRX's, we get rid of the stock boost controller altogether as it casues issues. How about on a Legacy?
Adam
Z-1 Performance
www.z1auto.com
(631)254-8277
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japtexas2001
Air/water intercooler question.
I believe that is in this link from Dave's site under the part about
surging under throttle...
http://www.xmission.com/~dac/library/turbo_faq.htm ... Sorry my links
in iClub didn't help with the compression maps. I was just throwing
out the results from a quick search.
Jim
surging under throttle...
http://www.xmission.com/~dac/library/turbo_faq.htm ... Sorry my links
in iClub didn't help with the compression maps. I was just throwing
out the results from a quick search.
Jim
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japtexas2001
Air/water intercooler question.
Third question from the bottom, now that I look.
Jim
Jim
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japtexas2001
Air/water intercooler question.
Josh, I've seen no deliveries, should I be expecting any, just
curious.
Jim
curious.
Jim
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ob1poor
Air/water intercooler question.
i believe you and everything but why doesn't it work? seems like it
should. like i said i take your word for it but just don't
understand why not...
should. like i said i take your word for it but just don't
understand why not...