Weird No Start Issue.

[Buffman]

This has happened in the past randomly, but now it seems to be occuring more frequently so time to make a post.

Sometimes when I got out to start the legacy (2.2L N/A AT) it won't start. It cranks, but hard cranks like it's not getting fuel or spark. Fuel Pump primes and has good pressure. If I pump the pedal multiple times or turn the car on and off and try and restart usually it comes to life but really hard and acts like it's missing for a couple seconds, then is fine.

There is never a CEL well besides it being lit up from no-start. IT's functioning as evident in both check modes. The only stored codes it flashes are both for the crank sensor and the cam sensor. Are there any way to test either sensor, or am I going to need one of those fancy o-scopes to check signal from them? I imagine I could check for continuity to make sure none of the wires are shorted.

I'm not sure though if one of them is to blame, or perhaps the ECU is taking a dump. It's weird to see both sensors come up in stored codes.

I did an expirement today. I went out and first unplugged the cam sensor. No Start as would expect. I then took key out, plugged back in, and tried to start. Took a good 20 seconds to get it started again and it was rough startup, but not that rough. Repeated same with Crank sensor, and when I went to re-start it took about the normal time as a regular start, and was smooth.

Any info is greatly appreciated


Matt

[tturnpaw]

have you tried cleaning the crankshaft sensor? Typically, well, as far as some cars go, the crankshaft pos sensor and camshaft pos sensor can throw false codes at each other if both are present in the system. Meaning, if you have a crankshaft sensor go out, like this sounds could be the issue, the ecu is almost second guessing itself to diagnose the issue. So, its related to timing it says. Ive had a car i worked on that would throw a code on the camshaft sensor with bad plugs. The plugs were detonating every time the ecu was trying to advance timing. So it thought the camshaft was off time.

I would suggest you continue to unplug the crankshaft sensor every once in a while and notice its starting habits. Clean it first of course. The reluctor wheel could also be corroded or dirty. It doesnt necessarily mean its a short or bad connection.

[ej22tVermont]

My fiancee has a 92 legacy L that did a very similar thing and the problem was not what we expected. Turned out to be the igniter. It caused only two cylinders to fire and intermittently all four. This meant sometimes the car started and ran fine, other times it would run rough, or not start at all. Be sure to get out your Multi-meter and test the igniter, coilpack, plugs, wires, and the wires from the ignitor to the coil. Hopefully this helps!

[Buffman]

tturnpaw I would assume you meant to say camshaft sensor as that's what I indicated the problem occured the most with unplugging. But yeah I've cleaned both of them. I cleaned the crank one when I did the timing belt this last weekend (was doing it before Tbelt change)

ej22tV is there a guide/how to for testing the igniter? Coil is good. I had a low mileage one I bought that ohm'd slighly less than the stock one thats on there now. I can always swap them out and check. Plugs and wires have 10k on them but will check them out.

[Buffman]

I also note that the back of the wagon gets covered in black soot. Mainly when I have to do passing or somewhat heavy acelerating. I don't have a cable built yet or a scanner that will live engine data, but could an igniter cause a timing retard (ie rich condition), or would more blame be placed on a possible faulty cam and or crank sensor? I thought it was oil, but after closely looking at it, it's not oil. Car still has main cat, and new OEM subie 02 with external ground MAF is clean btw. Someone before me had tried to remove the electrical plug (it does have four screws), and damaged the solder on the internal pins. It ran fine before and after I opened it up and resoldered the pins on it.

ECT is new btw. OEM subie.

[ej22tVermont]

Okay, so I really want to say your ignitor is bad. When they malfunction, causing loss of cylinders firing, raw gas is allowed into the exhaust. This will account for the black soot at the rear. I don't have the numbers in front of me for the testing, but after work tomorrow I can post how to test the unit. When a 4 cylinder car loses cylinders (especially more than one) it will run like the timing is slightly or even quite retarded. Like I said I will post this tomorrow, but if you can get to a Junk Yard, I would pull a couple , throw them in your pocket and go home to try. If this is the problem you will see an immediate fix. As far as your coil how much is "slightly" less than stock? This might also attribute to the problem. Just because it has low mileage does not mean that it was not subjected to abuse and neglect.

[Buffman]

I mean slightly less in terms of Ohms on the primary and secondary sides. IT would make sense then. IN the winter time I could randomly drive down the road when I'd first get her going, and it would all of a sudden run really really rough, then stop and would be fine. I'm not sure how rich subies are meant to run in the cold as a warm up procedure, but that damn thing one night in -15 almost smelled like raw gas coming out (it sounded/ran fine though)

[Buffman]

Is there any difference between the AT AND MT igniters that they can't be swapped between the two?

[ej22tVermont]

I am pretty sure that they are the same. I am still searching for the notes I have on this for the testing! I know I have them, I've just been so busy that I can't remember where they are at the moment. Soon though...

[fishbone79]

AT and MT igniters are the same. They may have different numbers, but supersede will come up with the same replacement.

I replaced mine when I got literally a 0.5 ml drop of water on it while the car was running (Long story - torrential downpour, late for work and the damn cat crawled in my engine bay like a retard)... Anyway, the drop leaked in and caused an arc between 2 of the wires that poke up out of the gel sealant, which broke them and the igniter was shot.

[Buffman]

Still trying to diagnose this stupid cold start issue, and have almost ran out of things to check. Never a CEL when it doesn't start. To get it to start most of the time I have to push the pedal to the floor, and it comes missing to life and eventually clears itself up.

It's weird sometimes that after 3-4 tanks of gas (mostly all shell gas, or sometimes meijer), it seems to run better and fuel economy goes up, then it seems to slowly get worse and fuel economy falls. It starts to miss heavily at idle.

I've tried the OEM ECU and a replacement I got from a friend. NO CELs ever.

Timing belt was properly replaced and it originally jumped my fuel econ up 2mpg.

coolant temp sender is 1yr old and OEM.
Cam sensor is OEM new.

I replaced the injectors with lower mile ones and did a Pro-Cleen system on them. That actually made the no starts, start back up easier, and fuel econ did improve.

Fuel filter has less than 4,000 miles on it.

Connector in seat looks fine, but I will make sure the foam insert is under the connector as suggested in a search.

I pulled the pump, and while there are some particles on the strainer, tank is clean, and no cracked hoses.

I haven't tested fuel pressure in awhile, but I recall it was decent when I got the car (36-37psi vacuum off)

New Igniter, Coil, and one year old plugs. Did it with the old ignitor and coil also.

Will double check my alt and battery, but they always put out good voltage.

I do occassionally hear lifter ticking, but it's on extreme cold starting, and it doesn't making any noises when it's missing ,other than of course the engine vibrating.

TPS and IAC ohm'd out to spec.

About the only thing I can think of left, would be the MAF sensor (found posts stating someone had jerking up and down at idle, and horrible running car turned out to be MAF), or the fuel pump just barely putting out enough pressure. I've got a Walbro coming, but would be better to find out it was something else to try before using it.

Vacuum at idle had a 1psi variation between 18-19psi.

Knock Sensor is from Autozone, but about 1 yr old. It has the exact same markings as the OEM knock sensor and has the upgraded connector on it.

I tried the select monitor to look at values, and I was seeing as much as 36* of timing at WOT. It was hard to read any other values because of the sporatic reading my 92 seems to have. Coolant temps were reported right when the car was at temp.

I've checked wiring and cleaned wiring connectors, and that wasn't much help.
Help!

[Buffman]

Checked voltage today. Solid 14.3V running with headlights, fog lights, radio, and blower going. Will dip to 13.9-14.0 when the AC comp kicks on, and 11.5 when cranking, but good battery voltage.

I put the foam insert under the fuel pump connector. Will see if that does anything.

[douglas vincent]

Watch voltage when cranking.

[Buffman]

solid 11.5v while cranking. didn't go lower.

[Buffman]

good spark indicated from each plug wire. vacuum at 18". I pressured the intake to 10psi, and the only air leaking was from the duct tape I used to cover the TB and IAC hose. I tested fuel pressure. It would go as high as 38psi with the vacuum off, but with vacuum on, it was 30psi steady. If I revv'd the engine to 3000+ rpm, pressure would drop off to around 26-28 psi.

Foam under connector did nothing.

I unplugged the MAF, and while it ran, it would erradically idle and want to die when it was at 1000rpm or less. Going to take the lifters out to inspect them tonight or tomorrow.

[Buffman]

Pulled the passenger side HLA assembly today. Two of the top rear HLA's had a lot of air in them. All of them holding oil now. Other ones had a little amount of grime in them. Seems to be running slightly better. Will have to do driver's side Wed.

[Buffman]

Driver's side today. About 5 of them had a lot of air in them. Engine sounds better, but still hasn't been starting the greatest. Will be waiting on MAF to use, and then fuel pump...

Matt

[Aerotech]

I am having the exact same problem... started when the weather cooled. More or less intermittent, but seems like every 3rd cold start is a hard start, just like you described. Sometimes it starts for a second, then dies, rotates backwards a bit, backfires thru intake, other times simply no ignition... which says to me a timing problem. Crank for a while, one or two cyl will start working, usually enough to keep it turning, pump the throttle to rev it and eventually the rest of the cylinders report for duty.

Only cold starts, never happens after the motor runs for a minute or more. I can smell unburned gas, & smokes after it does light off.

I have coil-on-plug ignition, 4 separate ignitors.

Replaced the crank sensor, no help... I'm looking for my spare cam sensor, gotta dig through the pile... also I want to shoot the wiring with the multimeter, this engine harness has history with cracked wires.

[Buffman]

new fuel pump made it run a lot better driving, but still lopping/missing at idle. Will await new MAF sensor.

[Buffman]

new plugs and MAF and still doing it.. GRRH. Guess time to tear apart wiring harnesses.

I would figure if it was a sensor I'd be getting a CEL for it by now!

[Aerotech]

I may have an answer now... one of the Vanagon guys is having the same sort of issue w/ a SVX motor, & someone suggested one or more leaking injectors.

I had noticed, at least on mine, that if the car sat at least a whole day 24hrs or more, it always fires right up. If it's driven, shut off, and re-started within 2 hours or so, it usually starts OK.
BUT, if it sits for more than 2 hours, no start.

If an injector is leaking, then the engine will flood, and no start, accompanied by raw gas smell (which I have). But when the car sits for a long time, the fuel pressure drops to zero, injectors no longer leak... then the gas in the cylinders evaporates eventually (or worse, drains into the crankcase). You attempt to start; pump primes the system, and vroom, you're good to go.

If you try to start before the gas goes away, the motor remains flooded, and you crank and crank until the cylinders finally clear and it starts to catch, one, two cylinders at first, then finally spins up normally, accompanied by a cloud of smoke/fuel vapors from the tail pipe.

Might also be the fuel pressure regulator, maybe?

What do you think?

[Legacy777]

Sounds plausible...

[Aerotech]

I found a temporary workaround; I unplug the fuel pump at the plug under the rear seat cushion. The pump quits, engine uses up whatever fuel is in the line & injectors, and dies. No fuel pressure = no flooded engine. Plug the pump back in, prime it twice, starts right up, every time. I'm going to tap into one of the pump wires and mount a kill switch, save me from getting out of the car to turn it off, plus it never hurts to have a secret switch in NYC...

That should make the car driveable until I can get the new injectors put in.

[Buffman]

I've swapped injectors on mine, and no change. Did find a piece of debri blocking the oil delivery hole for the rockers. No wonder they started clicking. Good thing I decided to take them apart when I got new lifters after I couldn't get any of them to bleed. I'm going to dig into the wiring harness next

[brweber352]

I was having a similar hard start problem. I had swapped injectors not to long before it started, so I figured it was a leaking injector o-ring but put it off because it wasn't to bad. The car ran really well and gas mileage was 22-23mpg mixed driving and 27.3 mpg when I really tried, driving highway at 65mph. So I figured my gas mileage was way to good to have a leaking injector, and I had no drivability issues. About a month ago I installed a DIS-2 ignition and MSD coil, at the same time temperatures dropped to 20* for two weeks. My gas mileage fell to 16.25 mixed driving and 25.3 when I really tried, no drivability issues. I figure it's the new ignition system so I check everything over and install new plugs,no change. I finally get around to hooking up revscan and notice the O2 sensor is a little sluggish so I put a new one in even though the old one only had about 40k on it, I am running E10 so I figure it's probably due and it's a universal bosch. Gas mileage gets up to about 16.8 mixed driving. I just happen to have ordered a spare OEM ECT when I was getting some parts, figure I would save on the shipping and it's always good to keep one in stock. I had no CEL and the fans came on and went off right when they were supposed to, but I figured what the hay. My gas mileage has gone back up to 23 mixed driving and just under 28mpg when I really try, and the hard start problem has not comeback since!

Like I said I had no CEL and everything worked fine I just happened to have one to try it and it fixed it. BTW the old ECT only had about 30k miles on it. Considering the ECT was only like $18 it might be the cheapest shot in the dark. I had no problems, cam or crank codes or sputtering so it might not be your problem. Worth a shot? I'll leave it up to you

good luck, brian