What Delta Cam grind to use for the EJ22t motor...

[Legacy777]

I'm curious, those of you that have used Delta Cams to get a regrind, what grind did you end up using for your cams.

I talked with them today, and they mentioned a 260 grind and possibly even a grind that was slightly different between the intake & exhaust....didn't get the numbers.

I searched and didn't find any specific numbers people have used.....so just curious.

[farfrumwork]

I have their 220grind. They said the 230grind would require some tunable EM, and would suit built heads better (more flow).

They mentioned the 260 when I called, but I got 220's. When I called to confirm before install he said (Ken I think his name was) that he mispoke about the 260 and that the 220 would be best - for a daily driver without tunable EM. I metioned that I only found 220grind with reference to NA EJ22's, and he said it worked well for both.
I believe DZX (or something like that - local dood here) had the 220's as well.

Anyway - the 220's work pretty well on my car (VF12, CES, AWIC, etc.. on stock ECU). I will give a better review once I get my new dyno #'s, but overall the cams softened up the low end (<2000rpm), are ~the same 2000-2500, and start pulling hard at 3000, and then pull longer in the powerband than stock cams (still pulling hard past 5500).

With that said, this is ONLY my ass-dyno talking, we'll see what the real rollers say with respect to power band. I wanted to track and post actual results as I couldn't find any...

I wish Delta would post more info on their various grinds. I'm not even sure what 220/230 means - I assume this is duration at .050" lift, which would make them equivalent to a "264" or so cam as most companies spec them (total duration) - most modern motored Subie guys are looking at 268, 272, 280 cams.


I should have dyno #'s in a few weeks.

-Chad
(BTW I put down 195whp/236Wtq prior to the cams - on a dyno that rates an STi @ 235/235)

[brweber352]

If I remember right, I read the 220 is the best for streetability and the 260 is more of a extreme cam designed for airplane applications.

I called delta about a year ago and talked to someone can't remember his name, I think Doug, he had alot of good info. He mentioned that you really don't want to port match the heads on a turbo motor, something about it creates a bubble or something. He said just knock of the ruff spots and polish to a satin finish, not a mirror finish. He also said don't touch the bowls and just go with a 3 angle valve job and not to let someone sell me a 5 angle valve job. I asked what I could expect as far as gains and he said 15%, didn't say whether this was airflow or hp. Now that I think about it that sounds like alot for just cams, so that might be from the P&P and cams. I forgot to ask about the powerband, but he did say not to expect much from cams because the turbo is the biggest variable.

He did say if I sent in my heads it would be about $1,200 and change for a mild port&polish, 3 angle valve job, full rebuild, and the 220 cams. This was just a ballpark figure he gave me, he said they just got done with a saabaru DOHC for around $1,400 and since mine was SOHC it would be a couple hundred cheaper.

I'm still thinking about this vs a head swap, he also said all their heads were bench flowed. Also I mentioned I found out about them through legacycentral.org and he said there would be a discount. I wanna say the cams are $114 or $144 after you send in you cores, it's been a year so memory is a little fuzzy. When I called he said they had a set in stock so I guess you don't really have to wait for them to regrind your cams. The price could be $184 as well , best to call about the price as i really can't remember but definately under $200, LOL.

I believe the cams come with spacers or something that fit under the HLAs in the buckets. He also said all Subaru heads they do get shaved slightly, he said if you don't do this you will have headgasket problems, apparently subarus like nice clean finishes when you do headgaskets. Oh, and he said they recommend the cams should be installed after the heads are bolted on the motor, something about making sure everything is lined up.

About the port matching, I think you want the ports on the intake to be slightly smaller than the ports on the heads so there is no chance of a ledge interfering with airflow.

Sorry if I posted to much info, just got carried away.

Hope this is helpful, Brian

[Legacy777]

Thanks for the info guys! I do appreciate it. I talked with Ken breifly today. He didn't really give specifics on the difference between the cam grinds.

I also asked about p&p'ing and he mentioned something about bowls and what not. So maybe Doug knows something Ken doesn't....I don't know.

Interesting comment about the headgasket. I did not have the block or head shaved at all when I put it back together.....just cleaned everything up. The heads were rebuilt with a 3 angle valve job I think....

I appreciate the feedback.

[brweber352]

The guy I talked to might have been Ken, like I said I can't remember his name. When I talked to him he was really giving me tips because I was contemplating P&Ping a set of spare heads myself, this is probably why he said don't touch the bowls. Since they are using a flow bench they probably touchup everything to get the flow just right. As far as the headgasket thing I just took his word for it, as I haven't had to do headgaskets yet.

You know I was really amazed at how much info/tips he gave me as alot of people don't like giving up their little secrets. He never rushed me either and was very eager to help, he probably would have stayed on the phone as long as I wanted. They seem like really nice people, and I would not mind giving my money to them. As a matter of fact I would love to give them my money, as soon as I get some

Brian

[93forestpearl]

I've had good experiences with Delta. I would like to send my 25D cams to them for at least a 272 weld and grind, but I'm picking my battles right now.


The grind I had on my 22T cams before were a basic grind, yet they helped from the power falling off too bad with those heads. I don't have any dyno plots that show that, however. If I leaned the idle a little bit past stoich, the motor had a nice little lope to it.



I didn't notice a softer low end since the motor was all done at once. The Wiseco pistons raised the compression up to 8.5:1, and since it was a fresh motor, it had more off-idle snort than my 200k 22E ever had.

[farfrumwork]

I forgot to mention the idle - yes it has a bit of an variable lope to it. Not too bad, but I will up the idle speed when I have some EM (900-950 would be great). It actually isn't very pronounced with the defrost on (raises idle to ~800 or so)

I also added P&P&C/ hiflow cross Crucial exhaust manifold with the cams (as well as heat wraping UP/DP), but all that should help the spool and I would think the off-boost response as well.

I'll be building a refreshed SB in the future too - Wesico .020 over 8.5:1, STi rods, new bearingsm, etc... I would think the extra compression should help a lot in the off-boost responce (even if it's only 1/2 a point more compression).

Stoked to get some dyno #'s on the cams!! I'll call and see about next week.


About heads - NO heads respond to overly heavy porting without significant iteration and extensive flow testing. however, the 22T heads should benifit from bowl work (blending) and basic cleanup of the ports. Have you seen the lip in front of the valve seat!!! But I would agree on the valve job, for a street car 3angle>5angle, mostly for longevity sake.

[Legacy777]

Thanks for the comments guys.

Dan, do you know what number, 220 or the like a "basic" grind would be?

Thanks

[Adam West]

Watching this. Great thread.

[93forestpearl]

Thanks for the comments guys.

Dan, do you know what number, 220 or the like a "basic" grind would be?

Thanks

Josh, I don't remember the specs and I never found the slip they sent back with them. I simply said to work them over with little discussion since I was pretty wet behind the ears at the time.

[epicfail]

Delta is a great company to work with. Just don't put too much faith in Ken. He's a salesman first and foremost (BS'er). If you're considering it, he'll sell you on why you need it. And he's not really that knowledgeable. I recommend talking to Jon. He has personal experience w/ Subarus in general, and our EJ22's.

Their grind i.d. numbers are just that, identification. In the days of old, cam numbers (260, 272, 282, etc.) corresponded to advertised duration. Now that in itself is a misleading number as different shops/companies would measure duration differently and advertise as they saw fit. The standard measurement ,@.050", was established to clear up those discrepancies. Therefor the measure that is most meaningful and comparable is the duration @.050", which is why you mostly always see it listed in cam specs.

Now, back to EJ22 grinds. Their 220 is their mildest performance grind and will work w/ stock EM. It focuses more on low and mid-range tq and streetability. The 230 is more like the top-end/race grind and will require aftermarket EM to make work (and to extract the max power potential from). I think they might also have one larger grind, but that would be full-race.

Being custom cam grinders, they can mix'n'match profiles on one cam. For example, a 230/220 grind for a turbo motor, whereby you'd want the longer duration on the intake to fill the cylinder as much as possible. Or, going by old-school hot-rod proven power-making techniques, a 220/230 grind for an n/a build would increase lift and duration on both intake and exhaust, but more so on the exhaust to aid in the scavenging effect and help to pull more air in during the intake valve event.
They could do any of that. You just have to know what you want and give 'em a call.

[93forestpearl]

^ I think I talked to Jon a few weeks ago, as he seemed to know subarus up and down.


They'll be working over my cams if I need it to exploit this shortblock.

[Grayguy]

^ how much what that run for all 4 cams?

[93forestpearl]

$500

[Legacy777]

Thanks for the info guys! I'll have to call back and talk with Jon for some more info.

[kleinkid]

I don't think disparaging remarks should be made about Ken at Delta Cams. I know him, he is a nice person. Any of their employees could be called a salesperson, I believe he is a machinist also.

That said, Epic fail informatiion about cams was informative, thanks.

[Delta Cam]

spec are

220 grind 202 @ .050 .312 lift intake
198 @ .050 .309 lift exhaust

230 grind 207 @ .050 .330 lift
this profile is a single pattern, same int and exh. specs.

This is Jon if there are any questions you have please send a PM or send me the link to the post.
Have a great weekend !
Thanks,

[Delta Cam]

Delta is a great company to work with. Just don't put too much faith in Ken. He's a salesman first and foremost (BS'er). If you're considering it, he'll sell you on why you need it. And he's not really that knowledgeable. I recommend talking to Jon. He has personal experience w/ Subarus in general, and our EJ22's.

Their grind i.d. numbers are just that, identification. In the days of old, cam numbers (260, 272, 282, etc.) corresponded to advertised duration. Now that in itself is a misleading number as different shops/companies would measure duration differently and advertise as they saw fit. The standard measurement ,@.050", was established to clear up those discrepancies. Therefor the measure that is most meaningful and comparable is the duration @.050", which is why you mostly always see it listed in cam specs.

Now, back to EJ22 grinds. Their 220 is their mildest performance grind and will work w/ stock EM. It focuses more on low and mid-range tq and streetability. The 230 is more like the top-end/race grind and will require aftermarket EM to make work (and to extract the max power potential from). I think they might also have one larger grind, but that would be full-race.

Being custom cam grinders, they can mix'n'match profiles on one cam. For example, a 230/220 grind for a turbo motor, whereby you'd want the longer duration on the intake to fill the cylinder as much as possible. Or, going by old-school hot-rod proven power-making techniques, a 220/230 grind for an n/a build would increase lift and duration on both intake and exhaust, but more so on the exhaust to aid in the scavenging effect and help to pull more air in during the intake valve event.
They could do any of that. You just have to know what you want and give 'em a call.

Ken has vast Subaru knowledge overall, and we are working with him to Teach him the camshaft side of them as well. He is one of our front counter guy's and also aids in daily shipping.

[Adam West]

Can you tune for cams with ppt6? Can't remember if you can pull timing?

[epicfail]

I don't think disparaging remarks should be made about Ken at Delta Cams. I know him, he is a nice person. Any of their employees could be called a salesperson, I believe he is a machinist also.

That said, Epic fail informatiion about cams was informative, thanks.

Sure, he is a nice enough guy. I didn't mean to say that he's incompetent, just not as knowledgeable as others in the shop, perhaps.

[Imprezive]

For what its worth when I called them up they had a 220 grind, and i think the 260. There were only 2 options. I got the 220 because i wanted to be able to smog it here in california (it passed but just barely, after several attempts)

Anyway, as far as driveability the car is the same with a slightly rough idle. I put these cams in with a few others mods (tdo516g, ported sohc heads & refreshed bottom end, turbo back exhaust) and got 200whp & 200lb-ft at around 10psi. I tuned it on a dynojet dyno with an apexi fuel controller & boost controller.

[Legacy777]

Very nice. Thanks for the info Imprezive.

[Delta Cam]

220 grind = torque
230 grind = HP

yes the pp6 is great for tuning these camshafts.
Be sure to order the correct camshaft when selecting what you want for performance.

Jon

[Penguin]

HAHA

I have been having this conversation for years..,

On every encounter with Ken I have ever had he has been an ass to me. Always giving off the "I'm to cool to talk to you" vibe.

Not to be completely negative, He does have a beautiful header on his N/A 2 door imp.( last time I saw it)

[cj91legss]

do these numbers apply to just the turbo legacy cams or what about 20G/H