Another overheating 2001 legacy wagon

[Mr. Hot]

Somehow, and since I check for just such a thing every other month when I do and oil change, I'm talking a pretty big somehow, my lower radiator hose clamp managed to unscrew itself and dumped all my coolant , causing to bury the temp needle deep in the red at 80 mph on I-95 last Sat.
Not knowing what happened and not wanting to destroy the motor, I had it towed home.
Opened up the radiator cap and poured in coolant and there it was , runnin' right out the bottom.
The old magically loosened hose clamp trick, I guess.
Since I really overheated it I dumped the oil that was new a month ago (it was incinerated) and changed it three times to get all the bad mojo out of the crankcase(as if that really helps. I can only hope, but apparently not), and somewhat flushed out the cooling system. Also put in a new thermostat although the old one opened up nicely in a pan of boiling water.

It's still overheating.
Sometimes I'm not even getting hot air out of the vents when I turn the heat on.
Today as I was taking the offramp off of the highway after it overheated (with the heat blasting but no hot air) I watched the needle drop during the cloverleaf part of the off ramp. Once I straightened out and merged onto the surface street, at 45 mph, the needle hit the red again. WTF?

Everything seemed fine until it overheated due to rapid fluid loss last Sat.
No white smoke, car runs fine, but what's up with the overheating and the no heat with the heat on?

I kinda need to get this straightenend out by Saturday morning at about 6:45 am when I need to head to work 10 miles down I-95 again.

Help

[kimokalihi]

Try bypassing your heater core to see if it is clogged. Pull the hoses off the firewall and connect them.

[entirelyturbo]

Do a coolant sniff test. I cannot stress this enough.

It costs virtually nothing (you buy a $5 bottle of testing fluid and rent the tool from Autozone or wherever), it takes about 15-20 minutes, and it tells you for sure whether you have a blown headgasket or not.

That way, if you do, you won't waste time or money chasing after other possible problems.

If I had done that when my old Legacy overheated the first time (which ended up later being a headgasket), I wouldn't have thrown away $100 on a radiator that I didn't need.

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[kimokalihi]

Good to know ill have to check that out sometime

[hitzkrieg]

this may sound dumb, but did you bleed the air out of the system when you filled it? there should be a bleeder valve on the passenger side of the radiator.

[jake15]

^this^ sounds kind of like you have an air bubble in the cooling system. do you know how to bleed the cooling system?

[entirelyturbo]

Newer Subarus don't have a bleeder valve, so it's a lot trickier.

Many people just raise the front of the car up so that as much air rises up to the top as possible during the filling process. Even still, you'll likely have a pocket or two. Keep driving it and topping off the radiator until the level stops dropping, and then it will be pretty much bled.

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[kimokalihi]

It's very odd that I've never run into this problem before. Maybe I'm just lucky. Every time I fill a coolant system up I just pour coolant mixture in until it's full and then turn the car on and let it idle and fill it back up every time the level goes down until it hits operating temp. Then I call it good and bring a jug of water with me. I check it often and top it off until I can go a few times without any coolant level drop. Works every time.

[Mr. Hot]

I know what you mean. I've never had this much trouble with a cooling system. Fill 'er up, top 'er off, bring a gallon of water along and all's fine.

This experience is just nutty.
I have no choice but to drive it about 10-12 miles a day and after about six miles , on the highway, the needle goes to the red and I nurse to work, or on the way home but the funny thing is it runs fine.
It's getting awful hard to start but once it starts it runs absolutely fine!

I'm gonna get it to a mechanic hopefully wednesday for a test to determine if it's a head gasket.

I'm thinking it must be. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the cooling system is supposed to be pressurized, right?
No air gets in, no fluid gets out.
The pressurization raises the boiling point of the fluid , right?
So, if there is a leak somewhere in the head gasket, wouldn't that suck in some air and lower the boiling point back down to that of water (212 degrees farenheit)?

That's what I'm thinking, but I'm getting no white smoke, the oil looks fine, the coolent looks fine
and it's running just as well as it ever did, which was real good.

How that's possible, I don't know other than Subaru's are freakin' bullet proof.

Wassup wit dat?

[kimokalihi]

Probably a bad head gasket then. Probably hard to start because you have coolant in the cylinder.

[entirelyturbo]

I probably put some 500 miles on my Legacy with those same symptoms before I did the coolant sniff test... including three runs at a drag strip.

No white smoke, no compression loss... just occasional overheating, especially after exiting a highway.

I hate to say it, but your model was pretty bad about headgaskets. Most of the time, they leak coolant externally.

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[evolutionmovement]

The air from compression gets into the cooling system from a leak at the fire ring. The air finds its way to the water pump pocket and eventually blocks the impeller from circulating the coolant.

[Legacy777]

Just curious....when you replaced your thermostat, did you replace it with a Subaru thermostat, or one from an autoparts store? If it is not a Subaru thermostat, put in a new Subaru thermostat or put the old one back in that you removed.

[Mr. Hot]

Well, the thought plickens..;.;.

I had the head gasket leakdown test done.;;;Negativel
And I had the other, emissions test done,..........negative,
No head gasket leak, no coolant or oil or what ever, coming out the tailpipe.

they said it must've been the thermo, something about it looking "scored" or something wrong with itl. Not opening all the way.

They ran it up and down the hiway (I-95) on a rather warm day, 80 degrees, with A/C and all was fine.

I get in the car and take it to pickup the wifey and go to Restaurant Depot to get some supplies for her cafe'///

Needle starts creepiing up!.....nice.

Next day , need to take it 50 miles away to visit parents in another state(granted , I'm going from Providence, RI to Plymouth, Ma, it's technically another state away) and the needle stays at about 9:30 IF I keep the heat cranked.
Needle goes all the way up if I turn down the heat. Turn on the heat, needle drops but never to that 9 oclock position .

I used to run this thing at 80 mph all day on a 90 degree day WITH A/C and it never once even got past the nine O'clock position on the fever gauge.

What the fuck happened?

So, last night I decided to change the coolant temp sensor, not that hard once I found it.
Now, the needle says the engine is at running temp within a few minutes as opposed to 10-15 minutes.

My wife works about two miles away. I would get her to work and the heat would just be coming on in the winter
Now, this new sensor says I have full heat in 90 seconds?
\
wtf

is going on?

Somebody hep now?
I'm sweatin'

-Mr Hot

[evolutionmovement]

Is it still overheating? If it is, I'd look at your radiator since it seems to be using the heater core as your primary heat exchanger, which suggests the actual primary heat exchanger is clogged or some how otherwise restricted. If it isn't, then you might be good. I wouldn't worry about how soon it says it's heating up as long as it gets to temp and stays there. For emissions reasons, engines are supposed to heat up as soon as possible. My Legacy used to take 5-10 minutes of driving to get to temperature in winter, but new cars take less.

[Mr. Hot]

I guess I should replace the radiator.
I thought this whole episode was initiated
by my lower radiator hose clamp loosening and losing
the coolant.
Now that I think back, since I was going about 80+mph, is it possible that
with a restricted radiator, at that speed, the lower radiator hose could've been "blown" off?
I just can't see it, cause how often to hose clamps come loose?
I check them every time I oilchange and none of the others were loose even a little bit.

So, ....a new radiator , and probably from the dealer along with another Engine coolant temp sensor and thermo....

Getting pretty tired of this stuff....

A completely trouble free car for 160k and then on the same day it hits 160.....this starts happening...WTF?

[Legacy777]

The lower radiator hose clamp coming off should not have anything to do with vehicle speed. I could see there be some correlation between engine speed, but still don't believe that is the case. The lower radiator hose is the return to the engine and should be lower pressure.

What I'd suggest is removing the radiator and running some water through it with the garden hose. If water flows through it freely and doesn't back up at all, the radiator should be fine. If it starts backing, chances are it's plugged and needs to be replaced. You don't need to buy one from the dealer, but I'd strongly recommend getting an aluminum radiator with plastic end caps vs. a copper/bronze radiator.

[Mr. Hot]

So, I installed a new radiator,....and guess what?....

It's still overheats just like before.


WTF, I'm a-fixing to have myself tied!!!!!

[hitzkrieg]

Even though your engine passed the head gasket test, it's probably the issue. Compression likes to escape into the coolant passages and create an air pocket in the system. Unfortunately, the engine in your car is the most infamous one for blowing head gaskets. If it has 160k miles on the original head gaskets, consider yourself lucky that they lasted this long.

[Mr. Hot]

The shop that did the head gasket leakdown test (left it underpressure overnight!), they also did the emissions test to check if any coolant or oil,etc., was passing through to the exhaust.
I thought that ruled out the headgasket.

Makes me wonder about something,though.
\
When I really get on it on the highway, downshift and really wind it out 4500 +rpm, I hear this high pitched "weeeee" sound.

Mighjt that be gasses escaping somewhere?
Is it nothing?

[Legacy777]

I would probably agree it's a headgasket. I had a head gasket issue on my turbo motor that created air pockets in the cooling system. It wasn't bad at first, but got a little worse. When I ran the coolant exhaust test, it wasn't 100% conclusive. They use a fluid that changes color in the presence of CO2. If the tech performing the test doesn't do it right, or doesn't notice a subtle change, the exhaust vapors in the cooling system could go un-noticed.

[Mr. Hot]

Well, you all have been great with all the informed info.

The shop I had the tests done at is a highly regarded shop here in Providence, RI(the best city in Massachusetts IMHO!).
They say they've done alot of Subaru headgaskets on my model year (2001) and they're quite confidant that it's not the HG.
The water pump and timing belt were done 45k ago, the radiator is brand new(no, I didn't pay $325 at the dealer for a Sub rad), numerous thermo's....a new Engine Coolant Sensor, gallons and gallons of new coolant (I hope I don't kill my cats with the spillage), the heater core is working, trust me , it's working and it's about 85 degrees for the past few days so that's a pleasure.
Let's see , what else, ......oh, and I haven't really lost my temper because I would definitely blow a gasket..

Maybe it's time to buy a barely running Triumph TR6 and kiss my troubles goodbye 'cause I'm just looking for an excuse to get out of this suburu at this point.

Thought I was gonna do 300k and on the day it hit 160k this business started happening .
'
Is someone trying to tell me something or what?

[Mr. Hot]

So, I finally found out what the problem was.
The mechanic(sic) who did the timing belt/waterpump 45k miles ago ; I remember him telling me that the reason the job took so long was that the first waterpump he put in had a defect. There was metal covering the opening into the impeller chamber so he had to remove it and redo the entire job with another water pump.
He discovered this not by visually inspecting the new water pump before he installed it , but by installing it without inspecting it first and seeing that the car instantly overheated when started.
So, according to him, he had to tear the car all apart and redo the intire job with a good waterpump,.......or so he says.

Well, as I was installing the Subaru thermostat that everyone here recommends I use, I took a look up into the waterpump which is easy to see because the thermo housing mounts onto the waterpump, right?

Well, guess what I saw?

He didn't redo the job and take out the defective waterpump, he took some sort of tool and punched through the metal and created an opening for the water to pass through into the pump!!

I have a photo of it on my iPhone(I'll try to upload it) and yesterday I went to the autoparts and looked at two seperate waterpumps for a Subaru and none of them look like they were routed out with a chisel the way the one in my car does.

So, what I'm thinking happened is that after 45k miles of trouble free , yet doomed operation, a flake (or chunk) of this metal he chopped away, somehow flaked off a passed through the water pump and has partially blocked the passage, somewhere, who know's , of the waterjacket.
Therefore, no matter what I do, the car runs just a little below the red on the water temp gauge.

Sometimes it helps to have the heat on, sometimes it doesn't matter. It's as if the temp. set point has been moved up from normal to just below boiling over.

So , now I need to have it torn apart and try to find this obstruction or possible I can blow it back out with some high pressure water.
The water coming out of my garden hose won't do it because I already tried that when I was flushing it.

Can you believe someone would do that to save a little time(actually , a lot of time).
Don't we visually inspect parts before we install them.

Don't we eat it if we fuck up instead of making the customer eat it?

Really?

Anyone know a good autorepair lawyer in the south shore of Mass. area?

[evolutionmovement]

I never use anything until I inspect it and compare it to the removed part, especially where almost everything is made in China. Half-assing a job is also something I would never do, but that's a good reason why in spite of never being able to finish school for lack of resources, I've done pretty well for myself, better than many grads. Someone like the mechanic who did that is an irresponsible loser with no self respect or character and that always catches up to a person.

A lawyer will cost you far more than you'd ever see back. I'd talk to the owner of the place and explain the situation. Have the pump as a visual aid and see if he'll do anything for you. If not, I'd inform him I would be contacting the BBB and take him to small claims court. Mechanics live and die by reputation, so the BBB threat might actually matter to him and the time/money of going to court over this would be more than at least doing the job over for free, even if he were to win.

[kimokalihi]

That's messed up. And exactly why I chose to learn to work on cars in the first place. Shops always screw you in one way or another. Either they're charging you too much or they're lying about what work they've done. I took my truck into a shop once because after replacing the engine it had this problem where it would jerk like it was out of fuel every time the car got to operating temp. It could cruise fine but any time you pushed the accelerator in anymore than cruising it would jerk uncontrollably and hardly accelerate. I replaced the MAF with a brand new one which was like $300 and that didn't do anything and I was fed up with it. The shop called me up the next day and said they fixed it and it was ready to take home. They told me the traced the wiring harness back from the sensor all the way to the ECU where they found bent pins in the ECU connector. Which I'm almost sure was never taken off the ECU so how would they be bent?

I went and picked it up and paid them $180 and started driving home. I got about 2 miles down the road and it started jerking like crazy. Months later I had to replace the clutch and while I had the trans out I noticed a water leak coming and I tried tightening the bolt where the leak was coming from and it broke off. So I pulled the engine the same day and drilled it out and helicoiled it. Then I decided since I had it out I might as well check it out really good to see if I could find any problems causing it to run like that. Sure enough after a minute or so of looking I found the wiring harness was melted on the EGR pipe on the back of the head. The wiring from the MAF was grounding out on the pipe telling the ECU that the MAF was only seeing minimal airflow. The wiring was in decent shape for the most part so I electrical taped it up and I rerouted it away from the EGR pipe and put everything back together. Ran like a champ after that!

Bottom line is, those dicks at the shop lied to me and charged me $180 for nothing. And they go on living their lives like it never happened. Had they actually traced the harness back from the MAF like they said they surely would have seen that. Had they actually test driven the truck until it warmed up all the way so it was no longer in open loop they would have noticed the problem was still there. Idiots.

That was the first and only time I've ever paid a shop to work on my vehicle. Never again.