So I'm going to traffic court in Williamsport...

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 8:45 am

Hey, that rhymed.

Near the end of October my girlfriend and I were driving through Northern Pennsylvania. She was leading in her car and I was behind her. Friendly State Trooper Bell was parked behind some bushes and pulled us both over to tell us we had been going 82 mph when the posted limit was 65 mph.

My girlfriend's not contesting her ticket, but I can't really afford any more tickets.

We've got a few board members in the Williamsport area, right? legacy92ej22t and Padishar Creel, right? Do you guys have any advice for me?

I was going North on Route 15 in the Lewis Township, Lycoming County, near the exit for Trout Run. I was fairly close behind my girlfriend's car, so I'm guessing he probably just clocked her and ticketed me for the same speed. My ticket says "radar" on it, though, with all the info on the radar unit.

The unit was a Decatur Genesis Handheld, which has two displays on it. One showing the realtime measured speed and another showing the last speed locked in. So I guess in theory he could have locked her speed in and then measured mine. I'm pretty sure I remember seeing him put the gun down as soon as he saw my girlfriend's car though. I don't know if there's any chance I could instill reasonable doubt about my speed being actually measured by radar.

The unit had been tested 56 days before. PA code says 60 days is the maximum, so that's okay there by law.

So... I'm supposed to show up for my hearing in front of the Honorable District Justice James H. Sortman. Should I hire a lawyer? Do you guys know of a good one? I don't have much extra money but I'm more concerned about getting this violation on my record than I am about paying right now. When Virginia hears about it, they'll consider it reckless driving since in VA anything above 80 is reckless.

I can't decide whether to plea bargain or not. How does it work; are there prosecutors for the state or does the police officer (trooper in this case) play that role? Can I approach him before the hearing begins and ask if we could work something out where I plead guilty to a nonmoving violation? Can I write him a letter sooner?

I'd really appreciate any advice you guys could give me, particularly those of you in the area. I'm close to losing the ability to pay for insurance.

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 5:04 pm

Damn vrg3, that really stinks. I only ever got 1 speeding ticket and I paid it without contest so I'm not real sure how they go about it here. I had a friend that got a speeding ticket though and IIRC he went to "traffic" court to plead not guilty, then they schedule a court date from there. If that's the case then you may have to come down here twice. BUT when he went to court the Officer that issued the citation didn't show up so they dropped it! I don't know if the DA office or the Officer is responsable for representing the State/County and I rarely have heard of people hiring a lawyer for traffic violations but if you have the money I don't see how it could hurt. I don't really now who is a good lawyer around here but I'll ask around and if anyone recommends someone I'll pass along their phone #.

See, if you would have left earlier and swung in for a visit this would have never happened

j/k. But if you do come down this time we should hook up.

Post by **Legacy777** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 5:41 pm

It honestly all depends......

I've been snagged before by a cop pacing....however he was never behind me......so I made the case you can't pace a car that is in front of a faster moving vehicle. I didn't get the case dropped, but they cut the fine in half.

I've just done the hire a lawyer thing......they didn't get the ticket dismissed, but like I mentioned I did do the deferred judification.

Let me talk to my uncle....he's been all over that state, and got his fair share of tickets.....when's your court date? Today 12/6/2003 ?

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 6:27 pm

Matt - The citation had a section at the bottom that you tear off and mail in. You check off the box next to either "I plead guilty" or "I plead not guilty and request a trial." I did the latter. In either case you have to send them the money; if you're pleading not guilty they use it as collateral for your appearance or somesuch. So I've already submitted my plea; I doubt I'll have to make two trips.

I was thinking we should visit too... Well, I should be finished before noon on the 22nd, and I'll be in the vicinity of 1965 Lycoming Creek Road.... :) I've still got your phone number.

Josh - My original date was the 9th but I had a lot of work so I wrote a letter asking for a continuance, and it was granted, so my new date is the 22nd.

I'd be really interested in hearing what your uncle has to say. I don't know if there's anything like deferred judification in Pennsylvania, but I'm from out of state so it might not matter. How did you manage to get deferred judification? Did your attorney ask the judge for it?

The thing is, I'd be content with a plea bargain to a nonmoving violation, or maybe even a lesser moving violation. But if I try to do research (i.e. ask the State Police to send me copies of all their evidence and whatnot) that may be seen as provocative and make the prosecution unwilling to make a deal with me. In any case I don't even know if I have enough time to do all that since there are only 16 days between now and my court date.

I've done the plea bargain thing once before. I got a ticket here in Ithaca and wrote a letter to the town's prosecutor. He offered me a deal -- I plead guilty to littering and pay the maximum fine of $285. Ouch on the fine, but at least I can still afford to pay State Farm. Until December 22nd, anyway. Sigh.

Brat4by4 · Post by **Brat4by4** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 7:48 pm

Cross-state violations shouldn't put points on your record. But you'd have to check that with your local BMV.

Fighting tickets is different everywhere you go. But when you meet with the prosecutor that's when you see if they are willing to do a plea bargain. The cop IS NOT THE PROSECUTOR and CANNOT act as such... at least in Ohio. That's what sucks about the different states and different traffic laws.

When you meet the prosecutor you just gotta be nice and shoot the breeze. "hey, how are you. beautiful weather we've been having. yeah, i don't think the officer could have clocked me, would you be willing to do a modification of charges?""

Go to the library and look up "Traffic Court", they should have some really good books that will familiarize you with the process. And if you get a lawyer they might be able to represent you and you won't have to travel (make sure you get a TRAFFIC lawyer with experience if you go that route). But you have to check with that PA court to see if they allow that.

Sorry I can't be of more help. All my experience really holds the most weight in Ohio in about 3 different court systems around here.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 8:17 pm

You shouldn't speed - cops are just there to protect us...

PA is horrible for persecution of citizens - I hold up old ladies when I had the unfortunate experience to have to drive through that state. Here in MA, tickets are supposed to count if they're from either New Hampshire, and I think, Rhode Island as they've linked their systems (though I've known someone who's NH ticket never got picked up in MA), but other states don't count (I've had tickets in New York, Michigan, Virginia, and Wyoming and none of them counted - whew!). I guess you'd have to find out how your state works. My MA tickets did cost me $2700/yr. insurance a few years back. About what the car was worth. Thankfully it's much lower now - moving out of Salem (the witch city) helped.

In my experience fighting tickets they will always knock down the ticket by 1/2 to discourage you from going to court, though I've heard that most people get them dismissed since they don't bother sending an officer. I think something like only 5% fight a ticket to the court level, so the cops probably just accept that loss. It's all about revenue anyway.

If PA doesn't consider 80+ wreckless driving, then you haven't been charged with that, so I don't think VA can charge you with it. I believe that would be a criminal charge, too, and under the jurisdiction of the courts rather than the RMV. I'm no lawyer, but that might be good as the courts have to follow laws, but the RMV can do what they want. I've had judges and state troopers tell me that the registrar can pull your license for dating his daughter or whatever he wants and the courts can tell them to give you your license back as it was an unjustified revocation, but they're under no obligation to comply. You've got to love it.

Good luck.

Steve

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 8:17 pm

vrg3 wrote:Matt - The citation had a section at the bottom that you tear off and mail in. You check off the box next to either "I plead guilty" or "I plead not guilty and request a trial." I did the latter. In either case you have to send them the money; if you're pleading not guilty they use it as collateral for your appearance or somesuch. So I've already submitted my plea; I doubt I'll have to make two trips.

Ya, you're right. I do remember that now. I think I got confused wth Oregon. I got a speeding ticket there back before I moved east and I had to go to Traffic Court just to plead guilty and pay the fine.

Brat4by4 has a good point about the points. I'd look into that before getting a lawyer. Are you also a NY resident? If so you may want to think about turning in your VA license for a NY license and change insurance carriers before the trial. That way if you get nailed full on and they do put points on your VA license but you have a clean NY license maybe your new insurance won't hear about it. I had a friend that did this when he moved from OR to VA. He got his VA license a week before a DUI was going to show up on his OR license and it never ended up effecting his insurance. =)

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 8:20 pm

These days, all states report violations to other states. Virginia's DMV assesses points for all violations reported by other states.

You're absolutely right about how frustrating the variety is. In some local courts up here, you just basically sit at a round table with the judge and the cop and talk it out.

I'm not local to Williamsport, so any information I find at the library will be generic. I have no idea how to find a traffic lawyer. Should I just try to find one in the phone book who specializes in DUI or something? I do think I'd want to go in person even if I have representation by an attorney though.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 8:28 pm

Up here I was told they only hear about the serious offences like DUI, driving to endanger, malicious damage to property, etc. that would also fall under court jurisdiction. I suppose they could've changed that in the last two years, but every state is different anyway.

I like when they made me take driver retraining and I pointed out the inaccuracies in the RMV manual under 'emergency driving'. The statie instructor was actually a little amused.

Steve

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 8:42 pm

Ok, I've heard this guy is a very good lawyer. Not so much for Traffic stuff but in criminal and civil. I just looked him up in the yellow pages to get his phone # though and it specifically says " all traffic violations" in his ad. Any ways his name is William J. Miele (570)322-2113. I hope this helps and like I said I have heard very good things about this guy. =)

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 9:05 pm

Ah, I missed both Steve and Matt's replies while I was replying to Brat4by4's!

Anyhow, Steve - Virginia's policy is that tickets from anywhere count. I know people who have had Pennsylvania tickets go on their Virginia driving records.

You're absolutely right that the DMV/RMV/BMV/whatever is completely independent from the courts and can do whatever they want. What would happen if I was convicted of 82 in a 65 in Pennsylvania would be: PA tells VA of the violate. VA's DMV looks at it, goes, "hey, that's reckless driving!" and puts a reckless driving incident on my driving record, and assesses the appropriate number of points. It never goes through the judicial system at all (since no court in Virginia has jurisdiction of something that happens outside the state).

It used to be the case in a lot of places that if you went to court there was a good chance the officer wouldn't show, but these days many jurisdictions set aside days for each officer where he is required to go to court all day. I know that's how it is in Fairfax County, VA, for example.

It is indeed all about revenue, but in order to keep the revenue coming in they need people to think "If I go to court I'll just waste a day off work and lose anyway," so they can't let all the court cases go.

Matt - I'm not a New York resident. My car's insured on my family's policy in Virginia, so I can't really switch easily. I have enough stuff on my driving record that switching to go on my own without my family would cost me more even without this newest issue.

Thanks for the tip on William J. Miele. I'll give him a call and see if I can afford his fee. Where did you hear about him?

How do you correctly address an attorney-at-law? Is he just "Mr. Miele?" Or is there some kind of title I should use when I talk to him?

Thanks a lot for all the support and help, guys. I appreciate it.

Brat4by4 · Post by **Brat4by4** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 9:28 pm

How do you correctly address an attorney-at-law? Is he just "Mr. Miele?" Or is there some kind of title I should use when I talk to him?

Yo yo yo, whattup my home-dog Miele! Fo shizzle this is VR, can I holla at ya?

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 9:36 pm

So "My home-dog" is the appropriate title, then?

Post by **Legacy777** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:24 am

I got 2 speeding tickets in PA in 01, and neither transfered to my driving record.....I get that same line that all states communicate....and unless it has been recent.....I know for a fact it didn't transfer for me.....one was a local cop, one was a state cop......and it was for like 95

He was really pissed when the amount wasn't that much.....

I didn't feel like trying to see if texas was the same way. The deferred judification thing is just something texas does....I don't think PA does anything like that.

I tried to get a hold of my uncle today but he was out....I'll try again tonight or tomorrow.

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:28 am

vrg3 wrote: Matt - I'm not a New York resident. My car's insured on my family's policy in Virginia, so I can't really switch easily. I have enough stuff on my driving record that switching to go on my own without my family would cost me more even without this newest issue.

Ahh, oh well. It was probably a long shot anyways.

Thanks for the tip on William J. Miele. I'll give him a call and see if I can afford his fee. Where did you hear about him?

I had a DUI a few years back

and about 4 different people recommended him to me. I guess he's gotten people off from some pretty serious charges. My father in-laws lawyer for his CATV company ended up representing me as a personal favor to him though so I didn't go to Miele.

How do you correctly address an attorney-at-law? Is he just "Mr. Miele?" Or is there some kind of title I should use when I talk to him?

I think Mr. Miele is the appropriate way to address him.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:33 am

They probably told Texas about them and Texas probably didn't do anything about it... Virginia'll put any violation from any state on your record. One guy once told me a ticket he got in Switzerland found its way onto his Virginia license! Apparently the Swiss got him with a speed camera, and the car rental company gave them his billing address, and they mailed him the ticket. They musta told Virginia's DMV about it too.

Thanks for asking your uncle for me, Josh.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:35 am

Matt - Ah, cool... personal recommendations are good things. I'll be giving Mr. Miele a call on Monday, and start digging deep into my pockets for his fee. :) If he makes his living getting people off from serious charges he probably charges them quite a bit for it.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:46 am

Maybe we should start a defense fund.

Steve

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:48 am

Hehe... Start our own Legacy Central Traffic Court Defense Fund... we each pay monthly dues and when one of us gets a ticket we can draw from the communal pot...

mTk · Post by **mTk** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:57 am

vrg3 wrote:when one of us gets a ticket we can draw from the communal pot...

Excellent, then i'd be sure to attempt more top speed runs

MK

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:59 am

Hehehe... yeah, such a proposition could be highly dangerous when your entire population is automotive enthusiasts. :)

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:33 am

We'll all go broke! Even the guys with the stand alone engine management systems tuned on their own 4-wheel dynos and transplanted STI chassis or whatever (I'm exaggerating, but you guys know who you are

).

Steve

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:43 am

Hehehe...

I think I'll post bunch of stuff up in the Parts Shed and see if I can make some cash.

Brat4by4 · Post by **Brat4by4** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 3:37 am

How is this going?

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 4:55 am

Well, I called William Miele's office, and played phone tag for a while. Turns out his associate E. J. Rimsa (I dunno if I spelled that right) handles these kinds of cases. He basically could try to plea bargain with the officer on my behalf just before the hearing... He wanted $350 for that. I'm sure I'd have a better chance with him asking the officer instead of me asking myself, since even my friends say I look like a terrorist, but I don't know if I can swing $350. I might just clean myself up as best I can and beg the officer myself. I don't know... I was pretty civil with Trooper Bell when he pulled me over, so maybe he'd be willing to cut me a deal. If he could even just knock it down to 79 in a 65 I'd be much better off.

legacycentral bbs

A forum for 89-94 BC-BF(BJ) Legacy Owners and Fans

So I'm going to traffic court in Williamsport...

So I'm going to traffic court in Williamsport...