Look at what my best bud just purchased

[ciper]

I convinced him to get a legacy a while back. Then the headgasket went out. We decided to donate it for a tax write off. I just recently tore the engine down in his truck for the same reason and didnt feel like doing it again (he doesnt know how to work on cars so much).

Now look at what I convinced him to purchase
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 2446161348

2003
less than 5000 miles
Sunroof, show me another with one (that wasnt purchased from santa cruz)
Wagon
VTD!

We pick it up on Saturday.

[RboarderI]

very nice....

[LaureltheQueen]

SUWEET! Wagons are the way to go.

[JasonGrahn]

sounds like your brother is pretty gullible.

[vrg3]

Woah... I thought the GD/GG chassis didn't have a sunroof (for rigidity reasons).

[JasonGrahn]

It was my understanding that they ALL had sunroofs cuz subaru wanted the cars to seem more posh and pompus and higher-scale then in the past. hmm

[entirelyturbo]

1) I'm with vrg3, when did a Impreza have a sunroof?

2) When did a WRX have leather?

3) Why an auto?

Now ciper, I know you're an auto fan, but a WRX with an auto is BAD!!! Your friend will learn better than anyone what turbo lag is! Everyone who has ever had an auto WRX complains of poor gearing and reluctancy to downshift, etc. etc. The car spends more time off-boost than it does on!

[vrg3]

subyluvr2212 - Don't a lot of those problems with WRX autos go away when you start left-foot braking?

[Brat4by4]

I am perplexed by the sun-roof also. 2002's (therefore 2003 also) did NOT have the sunroof since there was extra bracing there. If it is an aftermarket hack job, well... make dang sure you never roll the thing over.

[entirelyturbo]

vrg3 -- Unfortunately you can't launch a WRX with left-foot braking, because the turbo does jack before 3k! What all the magazines say is correct: 3000rpm is the magic number. I don't think you could get the engine to reach that high while stopped...

[vrg3]

Are you saying that if you try to build boost while stationary the engine will overpower the brakes?

I haven't driven any automatic WRXes, so I can't say anything from experience...

[morgie]

The sunroof was avauilable on some Euro-specs Impreza (probably the same in the mid- south americas)

[JasonGrahn]

It was my understanding that they ALL had sunroofs cuz subaru wanted the cars to seem more posh and pompus and higher-scale then in the past. hmm

I'm stupid this morning, sorry guys. I have it backwards. I now recall a friend of mine saying she WOULD buy a WRX - IF It had a sunroof - which it didn't.

Duh.

[Grant]

2004 WRX's have sunroofs as an option. The leather and sunroof are both aftermarket. Figure about $1200 for a sunroof and $1000 for the leather was probably the dealer's invoiced cost on this. We did it to a few cars at the dealership I worked at. They have a pretty sweet STI right now with an awesome leather job. Automatics suck. The resistance of the driveshaft from the brakes doesn't allow the engine to get much over 2K when you have the left foot smashed down on the brake. Plus the added beauty of the $4000+ transmission you'll get to replace.

[ciper]

Sunroof:
The sunroof was added afterwards. This was pretty popular in the bay area, many of the dealers having this as an option. Santa Cruz was probably the biggest to provide this. Trust me when I say this is a top notch job. If you where a car enthusiast but wasnt aware of WRX not having a sunroof you would have a hard time to tell its aftermarket. A couple long discussions existed on this topic, some people argue that the car is more rigid after install.

Leather:
Again another aftermarket addon. A couple different leather kits exist for the WRX. This one specifically is very nice, its hard to tell it isnt factory. Although I personally dislike leather (the leather seats in my LSI got removed before the oil was changed) Ive ridden in WRX with this setup and its high quality.

Automatic:
Many of you make a big deal out of automatics. When you drive one you realize it isnt as big of a problem as everyone makes it out to be, especially if you learn to drive it instead of trying to fight it. Lets say for example the engine only made 100 ft/lb torque at stall speed, well you still get torque multiplication because of the torque convertor. You end up with MORE off the line torque than that of a 5 speed for a short amount of time. Left foot braking also helps quite a bit, even without the engine is able to reach a higher RPM at lower speed with the auto (UNDER LOAD) than a 5 speed.

subyluvr2212:"Everyone who has ever had an auto WRX complains of poor gearing and reluctancy to downshift"

Not everyone, but alot. I still argue that they dont know how to drive an auto. They drive a 5 speed and assume that you just mash the gas. An automatic takes practice just as much as a 5 speed does.

Grant: "The resistance of the driveshaft from the brakes doesn't allow the engine to get much over 2K when you have the left foot smashed down on the brake.

Outside of the transmission itself all parts are equal with a 5 speed. When the vehicle is not moving the transmission doesnt come into play. The only part that has an effect at 0MPH full stall is the Torque converter. The stall speed is dependant on the amount of power produced. Ill double check the RPM but I swear I remember 2500 RPM stall, close to when power really starts to be applied.
If it really becomes a problem Level Ten can always modify it to increase stall, this makes a big difference even on NA vehicles.

"Plus the added beauty of the $4000+ transmission you'll get to replace."
Now thats just plain crap. Where do you get this from? COUNTLESS number of 5 speeds have failed for various reasons. Even out of those that still function there are a good number with bad syncros.

On the other hand I know of exactly TWO automatics that have failed, and those where in VERY HIGH HP vehicles. Even in those vehicles the failure wasnt the transmission itself but the input gear to the center differential and ONLY during Left foor braking at 0MPH.

That ties into the myth that power cannot be made in an automatic from the start. Its possible to build FULL BOOST at a stand still, which combined with torque multiplication results in incredible starting power. Sure this isnt the norm but its possible.

I have seen plenty of 150k automatics that still drive just fine, sure they fail eventually. On the other hand I have seen many 5 speeds that have already had work (a clutch or two) and have grinding gears.

Besides did you forget about the center differential? The 5 speed uses a plain old viscous coupling, you may not want to admit but they have plenty of issues (spinning a single wheel comes to mind). The automatic has an electronically variable center. Trust me, Variable torque distribution is something you do want.

Another small point. If you have ever tried to sell a car you'd know how many dumb ass's cant read automatic and call to ask "is the car a 5 speed" or worse, they come to test drive and say "oh, I didnt want a 5 speed." In a couple years he should be able to sell the car and loose only a couple thousand (especially considering it will be under 30k miles)

[Brat4by4]

Clutches are wear items, of course they get replaced... you can burn one out in a day if you try. My only gripe about your response.

Oh and at the end of the day 5 Speed = and 4EAT =
Bottom line

[evolutionmovement]

I had a sunroof installed in my Legacy (cheap manual one) and purposely sized it small to avoid cutting the support that connects the B-pillars.

Steve

[vrg3]

I think ciper's right that a lot of people don't really know how to best use an automatic.

When I first started driving, the only cars I had access to were automatics, so that's all I learned. I think I got pretty good at it. But then I learned to drive stick and got an Impreza 5MT, and since then I suck at driving automatics. For a short period of time I had a 97 Legacy GT 4EAT and couldn't stand it, because I felt like the transmission was always doing the wrong thing and like there was a rubber band between the engine and the wheels. I didn't know how to make it use the gear I wanted (or how to drive in a way that made that gear appropriate), and I didn't know how to wind that rubber band up to get more torque to the ground.

ciper, I'm not sure I understand what you mean about the center differentials... Unless the viscous fluid is dead, a Subaru 5MT AWD shouldn't be able to spin a single wheel.

[ciper]

Brat4by4: Fair enough, same could be said about the fluid in an automatic (the item that takes the most abuse). Its alot easier and lower cost to replace fluid than a clutch.


vrg3: "a Subaru 5MT AWD shouldn't be able to spin a single wheel."
Problem is that it does happen. Especially with the interaction of having one rear LSD and one open front differential.

Lets say the rear wheels are on a dyno while one front wheel is strapped to the floor and the other is floating. The one front wheel will spin THREE TIMES or more the speed of the rear! The open differential halfs this speed and the center nearly halfs it again. If the load is too great you will actually spin just the front wheel!! Talk about "AWD" moving the power from the wheels that slip to the wheels that grip. Come to find out this is only applicable to automatic vehicles!!!

I have seen similar to this even on very new vehicles. Who knows how a differential with 50k miles on it would act, but I know we all agree that the differential gets weaker with time.

On the other hand even if the center differential in an auto (VTD or clutch pack) gets old the computer still compensates for speed difference just like it always did.

People dont want to admit it but the viscous center is really a sad design compared to the offerings in automatics. Why do you think the STI 6 Speed (and counterparts available overseas for a while) doesnt use a standard viscous unit?

Ive actually specifically been looking for the older 6 speed with mechanical front diff and standard viscous center. Trust me when I say they are hard to find.

[evolutionmovement]

I agree autos aren't horrible. My first Subaru was an auto and it taught me balance and careful blending of throttle, brake, and steering inputs (as well as conservation of momentum - but that was due to 73 hp). If you let it kick down and then threw the shifter in the kicked-down gear to hold it from upshifting on its own, you could be ready for an upcoming passing opportunity. I killed more VW GTIs than I can remember with that thing. I think they're great to learn on as you can concentrate on more important things than avoiding stalling or what gear you should be in. They certainly make drag racing and J-turns (much) easier, too. Autos vary, though, and some of them are horrible while others aren't bad at all.

However, I vastly prefer a manual either way. Plus it limits the number of people that can drive my car - this may be useful when the new motor goes in and I take people for a ride. Oh, and it's good to teach girls to drive on, too. I'm going to do this before the ungrade so it doesn't matter what she does to the transmission.

Steve

[totech]

I have a 4EAT in all my legacies, now I think I would have preferred a 5 Speed in my BH Wagon, due to its weight, My wife would been sure to erase any cost savings when we replace the clutches again and again.

The 4EAT in the turbo keeps the turbo at full boost all through the gears, and in stop and go traffic in silly Toronto, it is the only thing that makes the drive bearable.

I like the 4EAT, it is not "only for those who cannot drive manuals" it is for lazy people like me

If I was to drive recreationally, then a manual would be fine, I had one in my recent BF wagon, and loved it, but it became tiresome commuting in stop and go.

SO, I get a Turbo, and the readily available Auto!

Good find Ciper!

[scottzg]

autos are for:
big trucks
little econoboxes
torquey american cars/ land yachts/soulless toyotas

in any car other than subarus, they are less reliable. subaru 5mts are wimpy, we all know it. Even still, a 5mt is easier to diagnose problems with, and easier to work on, start with a dead battery, drop...

personally, i really like the systems where you can select gears and the auto shifts for you, but for "joie de conduire" mt is the only way

a second faster to 60, mid turn downshifting, easier burnouts (just not in my car...) better economy, linear power delivery, easier to diagnose problems with, and easier to work on, start with a dead battery

[vrg3]

ciper - It really surprises me that you've seen that happen in nearly new cars... That means that the viscous coupling isn't doing its job, right? I mean, a properly designed conventional differential with a viscous coupling wouldn't do that, right?

About your dyno example, though... I would expect the one floating front wheel to spin twice as fast as the rear wheels, since the viscous coupling would ideally lock up and the open front differential would make the floating wheel spin twice as fast... I don't understand how it's even physically possible for it to spin three or more times as fast.

Although I guess the setup was never really designed to handle such an extreme example, where two wheels have normal traction, one wheel has unlimited load, and one wheel is unloaded. Maybe Subaru engineers meant for the center differential to only lock up partially, to give each wheel just enough torque to get past the current traction limiting situation.

[ciper]

The center differential is very weak, you can get an STI 20kg unit(if I remember right) that is supposed to help quite a bit. Still its an uncontrollable amount of power transfer.

Imagine if the front differential and center differential was open. They both could double the output speed of the transmission if only one front wheel was floating right? Thats where the 3x comes from, it does change depending on load so its not easy to give an exact number.

NO subaru viscous unit will ever lock under load. This myth was started by people who didnt understand how the magic LSD fluid works. It does get thicker as it heats, you can feel this if you have a rear LSD and automatic. I didnt write down numbers but when I installed an LSD on one of my cars I put a needle torque wrench on the axle nut and saw the torque increasing.

If you ever see a high powered subaru 5mt autocross you should be well aware of how they "light up the inside wheel" at sharp turns. This just doesnt happen in an automatic even with unlimited power. In fact even with the old clutch based auto you can induce tons of OVERSTEAR when the center diff locks. In low traction situations I can even do this on my NA legacy.

Ive mentioned this before but I feel its time again. The HUGE advantage to an automatic with a turbo is keeping boost DURING the 1-2 shift. With the 5 speed no matter how good you are the engine is disengauged from the transmission for a period, which means the throttle has to be partially closed and the engine is no longer under load.

scottzg: 5 speeds are only more "reliable" because they have one wear item that takes 90% of the abuse. An automatic has many internal clutches that take abuse every time it shifts.

Think of it this way. The average manual will have lifespan Y until some repair is needed. This repair is usually low cost. The average automatic will have average lifespan 4Y until a repair is needed. This repair is usually expensive. In the end if you add this up the automatic isnt really that much more expensive. In fact if have decent luck your auto will last the life of the vehicle.
Personally Id rather take my chance with a transmission that may need work once than a transmssion that is guaranteed to need at least a couple smaller repairs.

I argue that autos are NOT for "little econoboxes"
The fuel economy of an auto can be nearly the same as a 5 speed, but the reduced cost of a 5 speed fits in with the economy price. Plus econoboxes usually have little power and the automatic isnt tuned well so you end up with a slow ass car. Ever drive an automatic civic with the weaker engine

[scottzg]

Think of it this way. The average manual will have lifespan Y until some repair is needed. This repair is usually low cost. The average automatic will have average lifespan 4Y until a repair is needed. This repair is usually expensive. In the end if you add this up the automatic isnt really that much more expensive. In fact if have decent luck your auto will last the life of the vehicle.

the manual only wears out if the driver can't drive. my car has a replaced clutch, courtesy of the P.O., at 72k. In my family, theres a 161k car, a 290k truck, and 268k legacy (not mine). none of these have had a replaced clutch. I have the only marginal synchro, thanks to a very bad missed shift. Our only auto, a gmc v8 van, is working on its 3rd trans. They fail every 100k.

To be honest, ive only driven an automatic a handful of times, and each time, ive hated it.

2001 civic lx- so slow, i thought it was funny. but i was driving it in traffic, and it was good.
economy cars have manuals because of the small displacement/high rev formula. To get decent performance, you have to drive high in the power band. Same goes for a sports car, or one used for spirited driving. you just can't do it with an automatic. And so, as i said, paddle shifters, smg, etc, are the only way to use an auto.