Timing is done, car won't start.

Danny-G · Post by **Danny-G** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:31 am

Just to recap a bit, I discovered the crank pully was wobbling on my '93 sedan. I got the pully, crank sprocket, woodruff key, timing belt, and tensioner from a '95 L at a local junkyard. I checked the belt out and it looks like it was replaced recently, all the marks are still there and very clean. The tensioner looks to be in the same condition. I got everything put on my sedan following the Haynes manual word for word, timing is spot on and the car cranks and cranks but doesn't fire, let alone show any signs of trying to start.

During the timing belt install, I swapped my oil pressure sensor for the one off the '95 as I hit mine with a hammer once and that made the tab loose. After swapping the sensor, the oil light won't come on when I turn the key to "on". I have no idea why the oil light won't come on anymore, the wire is on the sensor nice and tight. Is there another sensor related to the oil light?

Another thing that just came up after the timing was done, the fans kick on instantly when I turn the key to "on". I know the single wire temperature sensor is bad cause the gauge will go all the way up when the car is cold. Is it possible that the two wire sensor has gone bad?

I'm at a total loss here, I know the car has gas, I can hear the fuel pump working, the plugs aren't that old, the plug wires are a few years old, I didn't touch anything electrical during the timing job other than the alternator, raditatior fans, and oil pressure sensor. I did take the crank angle sensor out and wipe the crud off the end of it but that shouldn't make a difference, right? I really want my sedan to be working again, its good on gas and I can take it everywhere. And the car was running perfectly before I discovered the wobbling pully, I was daily driving it with no problems at all.

Post by **Legacy777** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:42 am

Danny,

How long ago did the engine run?

When you put the timing belt on, did you align the mark for the crank gear on the front or rear mark?

You can see the correct mark on the back of the crank gear near 12:00, and the incorrect mark on the front of the crank gear at 3:00.

http://main.experiencetherave.com/subar ... P_4984.JPG

Regarding the oil pressure sensor light, it should work if the sensor you snagged is good. You can pull the connector off the bad sensor and see if the light comes on. If not, try grounding the connector and see if the light comes on then. If it comes on in either of the "test" scenarios then the sensor you snagged is bad.

A new sensor is only $15, so they're not that expensive.

The fans coming on....do they come on and stay on, or cycle on and off? Is the AC or defrost button depressed on the HVAC controller.

Danny-G · Post by **Danny-G** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:09 am

I stopped driving it on the 8th of last month and had the pully off the next day. The mark I used on the crank gear was marked with red paint on ont of the lobe thingys. Considering the motor sounds normal when it cranks, I think I used the right mark. As for the fans, its only the main fan thats kicking on cause the sub fan has been blowing fuses since wcss 12, but other than that, the main fan will run and run and run and none of the buttons on the HVAC are pushed.

glennda5id · Post by **glennda5id** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:45 am

You need 3 things for a car to start. Fuel, spark and compression. It sounds like you are convinced you have compression based on the sound the motor is making when it is turning over.

Have you verified spark? Try pulling a plug and laying it on the engine and see if it sparks when the motor turns over.

kimokalihi · Post by **kimokalihi** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:25 am

Yes, always check for spark, fuel and then compression and timing belt to make sure everything is 100% lined up properly without a doubt. It doesn't sound like you're getting spark if the engine doesn't even try to fire. You can eliminate a LOT of guesswork and wasted time verifying you have spark on every plug by pulling them one by one and grounding the threads on the engine somewhere and looking for spark. Then pull the hose to your fuel filter and see if fuel comes out when the engine is cranked. Place the hose in a clear container to catch the fuel. Even on low compression you'll probably be able to fire it up and you'll hear it at least trying to start. But you may have a gear or two off in your timing and then your valves might not be closed when it's firing. So go do the necessary diagnostic work and come back to report your findings. It's probably something simple. Either the belt is off or a sensor is preventing the ECU from firing the plugs. Don't forget to check your trouble codes by connecting the black connectors under the dash.

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:41 pm

If the engine was running fine before you did the timing belt, and now it won't start, chances are the timing belt isn't lined up properly.

If it makes you feel any better, I did that exact thing on my grandfather's old 93 wagon. I used the arrow mark on the front of the crank sprocket, not the mark on the crank sensor tooth on the back of the sprocket. I had to take the whole thing back apart and do it all over again.

Also, use the marks on the belt. Forget trying to get the sprockets lined up with the marks on the timing covers and what not. If you line up the marks on the belt with the correct marks on the sprockets, you can't go wrong.

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MConte05 · Post by **MConte05** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:43 pm

I did the exact same thing on my rally car when I swapped NA engines. I was so used to doing timing belts on newer Subarus where you use the front mark that I just instinctively did that on the older one, and was at a complete loss when I had fuel and spark but no combustion. Sounded normal cranking over too.

Just take off the covers and re-do it. Make sure the mark in the rear of the sprocket is what you use.

If it also helps, I was telling people it couldn't possibly be the timing belt because I just KNEW I had done it right. Turns out I didn't.

kimokalihi · Post by **kimokalihi** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:11 pm

Actually now that uts been mentioned I remelber doing the same thing. Its very deceiving.

Danny-G · Post by **Danny-G** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:45 pm

I used the mark on the back of the sprocket cause it was marked with red paint, similar to how the cams are marked. I made sure the cams were lined up to their marks and I made sure to get the marks on the belt lined up with the cam marks.

kimokalihi · Post by **kimokalihi** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:55 pm

Have you checked for fuel, spark and trouble codes?

douglas vincent · Post by **douglas vincent** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:53 pm

I think you have something unplugged. The temp gauge climbing all the way up is a symptom of something not plugged in,.

MConte05 · Post by **MConte05** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:15 pm

Crank and Cam sensors plugged in?

jefferson · Post by **jefferson** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:47 pm

Someone could have painted the red in the wrong spot. I would check it again.

Jeff

Danny-G · Post by **Danny-G** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:18 am

I checked the codes, got three. IACV, TPS, and coolant temperature sensor. I tested the TPS and IACV and they both tested just fine. I know the temperature sensor is bad cause the fan kicks on instantly. I checked for spark, there is none. But I'm thinking thats due to the ecu seeing the bad sensors. The red paint looks to be factory and its in the same spot as the mark on the old crank sprocket.

kimokalihi · Post by **kimokalihi** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:44 am

I'm gonna say its probably a broken wire on a crank or cam sensor.

MConte05 · Post by **MConte05** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:30 am

Forgot a plug under the intake manifold or something? The IACV, Water Temp, and TPS are all on the same wiring harness if my memory serves me right.

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:26 am

I still think it's your timing. The fact that it was running fine before you changed the timing belt is a big red flag.

Legacy777 or somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the ECU looks for matching signals from both the cam and crank sensors in order to fire the coil. So, if your timing is off, you won't have spark.

I'd at least take the crank pulley and timing covers back off just to be 100% sure.

Like I said, it happened to me too, and I had no excuse other than just careless stupidity because I had already done a successful timing belt job before on Patti.

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Danny-G · Post by **Danny-G** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:39 am

I'll take a look at the timing tomorrow. Its just a pain to keep taking that crank bolt out after tightening it.

Post by **Legacy777** » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:23 pm

Yeah....if it worked before you did the work, there's a good chance the reason it's not working now is due to the timing belt or associated sensors/wiring that was removed. Some of the old wiring is rather brittle, so moving it around can cause it to not work or break....

Let us know what you find when you take the crank pulley off again.

Danny-G · Post by **Danny-G** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:01 am

Tore into the car today. I did end up using the wrong timing mark. So I re-did the timing again, turned the key and it started then died right away, hooked the green connectors under the dash and it says IACV and coolant temperature sensor. So I swap on the original IACV and turn the key again, this time the car starts and stays running but the idle is around 2k. I already kenw the idle was gonna be off, I had taken that IACV off cause it threw a code before. I still have the same two codes, 21 and 24 but the car will start and run now! I'm gonna need to get an oil pressure sensor too cause the oil light won't even come on. I'm pretty sure all the faulty parts will be replaced by next week. Then I can drive my sedan again! I am so glad it runs again, regardless of the CEL.

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:50 am

Glad to hear you got it running again.

Just for reference for anyone else that comes across this thread in the future... on these engines that aren't interference, there's no harm in starting the car and letting it run for a few seconds right after you've put the timing belt on.

That way, you can be sure you did the job right before you put all the timing covers and crank pulley and accessory belts back on.

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Post by **Legacy777** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:37 pm

Glad you got it running, however you should address the codes in the ECU so they clear.

Also, FYI, the black connectors are used to show stored codes, and I'd start with them before using the green connectors for the active diagnostic.

Danny-G · Post by **Danny-G** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:24 pm

Black connectors gave me three codes, 21, 24, and 31. Green connectors gave the same three. I know the temperature sensor is shot, the fans run in the on position. I knew I wasn't fixing the IACV by putting the original one back on the car. As for the TPS, I'm not sure why its there, I tested it already and it tests just fine. I'll be getting a new temperature sensor and oil pressure sensor friday and I'm planning on making a junkyard run for a throttle body and IACV. I might get two IACVs just to have a spare.

kleinkid · Post by **kleinkid** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:21 am

A and G Import Auto in Port Hadlock, Hwy. 19 south of Port Townsend, has lots of Subaru parts, and whole cars. Has some Leg SS there.

Danny-G · Post by **Danny-G** » Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:44 am

Junkyard run today brought an oil pressure sensor, IACV, and the wrong throttle body. Also stopped at NAPA and got a new temperature sensor. Car runs and idles, could probably drive it but if I push the gas down quick, the car stumbles and almost dies then acts normal. I'm guessing thats due to the TPS throwing a code.

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