Noise from clutch

[Tsubie]

Hi everyone, first post here. I'm having some noise from clutch area that I'll do my best to describe. First off, I have a '93 Legacy L 5-speed w/189k.
I tired the search feature but wasn't having much direct luck. I'm hearing a rubbing, whirring noise, kind of between a growl and a hiss (like a "hhhhh" sound) when I press the clutch pedal in. It goes away when the vehicle is stopped, or when in neutral and clutch pedal out. I notice it most when say coming to a stop sign with the clutch pedal pressed in. Today, I would put it in neutral and take out clutch pedal when nearing a traffic light and would not get any noise. Or, I can coast down a hill in neutral and not get any noise until clutch pedal pressed in. I recently had a new clutch, flywheel, & throw-out bearing installed. Also, I have had to have the clutch adjusted twice in less than 2k miles. Are there any other ways to adjust after new clutch other than the adjusting screws/rod on the end of the cable under the hood? In other words, is it possible that the bottom end of the cable never got the right clearance?
From what I gather, I believe that could sound like a throw-out bearing with noise when clutch pedal pressed in? I did also notice that the release lever has some left to right play even when the cable is fairly tight. Does this sound like it may be contributing to the problem in any way? Please let me know what you guys think, or what other info I can provide. Thanks to everyone in advance

[wtdash]

Welcome to the LC BBS...

I'm not the expert but did a 5-speed swap and learned a bit from that job.

I'd also suggest getting a new cable for your clutch.

The TO bearing does sound suspect.

If you had the clutch job done @ a reputable shop vs. your buddy's best friend's ex-GF's older brother, than you 'should' have a warranty and they should make it right for you.

GL,
Td

[Tsubie]

wtdash, thanks for the welcome. That's crazy that you're from n. Id, I've lived over 20 years in Cda' & Sandpoint.
You're probably right on the cable since I'm pretty sure that is original.
All hindsight aside, I had the clutch done at a Midas, Meineke type place and I have a feeling that might have been my first mistake. The job was done on a Friday, of a holiday weekend, and I later found out it was the mechanics first clutch job! No, I'm not making this up, and yes, I have learned my lesson. Apparently, the head mechanic/ owner (that I dealt with), was going to be looking over his shoulder, but he left before the job was done or tested. I hesitate to have them work on it anymore, but may have to.

I did notice my gear shifter has started to pop out of gear in 3rd (only about 5 times total), but I don't know how related that could be. The part that gets me is why I would have to adjust the cable that often. I haven't smelled any burnt clutch, so maybe the same kid didn't tighten down the locknut and they both backed off? I went ahead and took up the slack in the clutch cable, so it now has normal freeplay in pedal and engagement, but still has same slight contact noise when pedal pressed. I have to wait until Monday to get warrantee info.

[Legacy777]

Welcome to the BBS. I would also suspect that something wasn't done properly when the clutch was installed. What brand of clutch & pressure plate were used? Did they replace the throw out bearing?

You can try taking the rubber boot off that goes around the bell housing and shifter fork and look down in there to see how the clutch fork looks and if the two clips are properly installed on the clutch fork and throw out bearing.

Is the noise engine rpm dependent or vehicle speed dependent?

[Tsubie]

Thanks Josh.

I'm leaning towards incorrect work done as well.
When I picked up the car it acted like dead battery. I jumped it and came home, only to find out the next day that the main ground to engine block had missing bolt and therefore not grounded.
I managed to get the car back to them and had them check why the car won't start (already knowing myself it was the missing ground bolt). After them not finding anything and saying repeatedly that it was my "20 yr old car acting up", I showed them the newly missing bolt and they manged to muster a "yeah, that would do it". Not exactly a good feeling about the work he just did. On top of possible negligent mechanic work, they had terrible customer service as well. With the whole "it couldn't possibly be anything we did, it must be your crappy car" Anyways...

To my knowledge, it should have been clutch disc, pressure plate, t.o bearing, and I thought new flywheel. The brand is there OEM replacemnet, I believe Exedy, but I'll check for sure tomorrow.

The noise is a constant level (and is only when clutch pedal is pressed) and doesn't change with rpm's,. The sound isn't rattly or clunky, but more of an even tone like something isn't quite releasing at the way, or I guess like a dry sounding bearing. I almost thought something like brake pad drag, but it changed when pressing clutch pedal. Also it doesn't feel like it's slowing the car down at all, just making dragging noise.
Could that still be T.O if it's not making noise when the car is idling (stopped) and clutch pedal pressed in?

[Legacy777]

There are two clips that go on each side of the TO bearing to hold the clutch fork on. It's possible that the fork is only holding onto one side of the TO bearing and not completely disengaging the clutch.....that's really only a guess though. I'd really suggest seeing if you can look through the hole where the clutch fork comes through to see if you can see anything. That may give you a better idea.

With the sounds of how poorly they did the work, I'm not sure I'd trust them to do it again....

[Tsubie]

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll take a look in the morning and see if I can find anything out of sorts with the clips or TO bearing.

[Tsubie]

Here's a belated update. I wasn't able to really do anything yesterday but here's what I found out.

The brand of clutch (kit) is Luk (Luke), not Exedy. The kit included a clutch disc, pressure plate, throw-out bearing, and new flywheel. I have the (a) damaged pressure plate and clutch disc FWIW. I'm guessing probably NOT new clips. Luckily, they do offer a 12 month/12k warranty but I'll have to think about that.

What I observed while driving is:
-Noise is quieter than I first realized. I couldn't hear it with the windows open, had to put them up to hear it more from underneath or within than from outside. That seems weird, but would explain why I may not have heard it as much until now when windows are up when driving.

-I heard the noise throughout the pedal stroke. No different from barely pressed to fully pressed in.

What I observed under the hood:
-Josh, I tried looking down past the boot into the clutch fork, but just couldn't see down in there. My rubber boot was split some so I didn't want to tug on it too much. Only saw about an inch in there.

-Is there supposed to be a spring above the adjusted nut? I've seen that in the Fsm's, and wonder how much that would help the side-to-side play in the release lever.

-the cable is binding/kinking right at the top of the pedal stroke. Watching the adjuster end, I can see and feel it shift every time so that will be changed. Thanks WTDash.

-When I move the release lever side to side, or barely back and forth, I hear a small clunking from in the housing area. Not terrible, but not right. While moving the release lever side to side, I can make this sound go away if I push into housing (toward the bottom of the car), or more pronounced if I pull it back (towards hood). I tried making a 30sec video of this movement and sound. Let me know if that might help.

I was almost dismissing it as me being a hypo-"car"-driac and paying too much attention to everything, until I felt the noise contact from the release lever. This is not right. I'm now leaning hard towards the clips from how it sounds and the fact they weren't replaced.
I may just have a shop check it so I can have a second opinion when/if I take it back to the original shop.


One question, so I might be able to rule it out, I was thinking my slightly grinding syncros, and newly popping out gear might be the noise. Like Pilot bearing, input shaft stuff, but would that sound go away when idling, or stopped?
Sorry guys for the series of novels

[wtdash]

Hey...all pertinent and got a 'lol' out of your "hypo-car-driac".

Something I thought about today was the clip on the clutch fork that holds onto the pivot ball (upper fork):


I know when on the 2-3 clutches I've done they can look flimsy and not always go on smoothly. On my 180K Forester clutch, the actual clip arms were worn very thin...should've replaced them.

This clip is pretty much invisible, IIRC, when the fork is installed but something else to think about.

Td

[Legacy777]

Look at the first page of this pdf. It will show you how all the clips, fork, and everything goes together.

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... h_Info.pdf

I agree it sounds a lot like the clips. If you've got a video, yeah that would help.

As for your for your popping out of gear question. The main input shaft continues to still spin when the car is stopped and the engine is still running as long as the clutch is not depressed. When you depress the clutch, the main input shaft on the trans will stop spinning.

[Tsubie]

OK, so I feel like I have a better understanding of the retainer spring and bearing clips. So tiny and so crucial that they're installed right. Thanks guys for your info and the pdf.
I will need to change the clutch cable soon, and have included a vid of the binding cable. The clutch pedal is being pressed in and out full travel, and you can hear/ see the binding.

The other vid is the release lever noise. It's hard to tell in the vid but in person the noise sounds like it's coming from down in the clutch fork area, not the adjusting rod area.
I tightened the adjusting rod even more which helped eliminate a lot of side-to-side play in release lever but still have a sound that I don't like.
If I rock the release lever front and back (towards front and back of vehicle), it makes the clicking (?) noise, but only when leaning to one side.
-I lean the release lever towards the passenger side and rock fore and aft...no noise.
-I lean lever to the driver side and rock fore and aft, and get a "clippy" kind of noise. This is shown near the end of the release lever video. Not sure if they are posted/attached correctly, please tell me if not.

I have a bad feeling that these clips (or retainer spring) might not be under warranty since they were not included in what was being replaced. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the twisted cable is actually pulling the lever over to the driver side that makes the noise, but who knows. For now, I wanted to get a couple video clips on here and see if this looks, sounds, normal to you guys.


http://s990.photobucket.com/albums/af28 ... lebind.mp4

http://s990.photobucket.com/albums/af28 ... rnoise.mp4

Thanks again!

[trevorno]

Be sure to be patient when you do your clutch cable. It's a major pain getting it re-connected to the back of the clutch pedal. It's a blind job so you're doing it by feel. I ended up cussing a fair amount but didn't have to throw anything.

[Legacy777]

The front to back play looks mostly normal. However the side to side motion seems a little excessive.

[rallyak]

I just installed a tranquil kit and that fixed my side to side play.

The snout that the throw out bering rides on was very worn out.

[Tsubie]

Hi guys. Just putting a bit of a closing on this. Didn't want anyone to think I was ignoring all their helpful info. As is always the case, I wish I knew all of this before the clutch job. I'm still looking into exact causes, but a lot of things point to inside the housing and I'm still figuring how I want to go about that problem. I'll let everyone know if I have anything new to report.