My EJ20G BF conversion has begun

Heads, valves, pistons, rods, crankshaft, etc...

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My EJ20G BF conversion has begun

Post by Matt Monson » Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:17 am

So,
I have decided what to do with my new used '90 5spd BF. I am swapping in a JDM closed deck EJ20G from a Liberty. I found one that will be delivered manana. I plan on using that along with a USDM Legacy Turbo wiring harness and ECU in the car. It has the AWIC, it's missing the reservoir, but that can be dealt with. I want to use the EJ22T manifold ( I think the bolt pattern will match. we'll have to see) along with converting the coil pack to avoid any issues the coil on plug might present. I have a ton of Legacy turbo parts in garage, along with everything off the na BF vehicle, so I am thinking I can pull this off pretty danged cheap. I have a turbo radiator. I need to pick up a fuel pump, but do have a FPR. The pump the EJ22T came from had 200k mi on it, so I passed. I am using the GF's '04 WRX dp and muffler and will just have a custom mid-pipe made up, once again. And when money permits, I will get an sweet DP for it. I also still have an MBC, so turning up the boost a bit is solved. I may even throw my VF-29 on the thing if I decide to keep it for a while.

Anything I am missing?

p.s. This is all just to keep me busy while I build my EJ22T :twisted:

EDIT: fixed confusing terminology...
Last edited by Matt Monson on Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ciper » Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:25 am

Can I have the coil on plugs to play with? When you say manifold do you mean exhaust, if so it will fit.

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Post by Matt Monson » Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:31 am

ciper wrote:Can I have the coil on plugs to play with? When you say manifold do you mean exhaust, if so it will fit.
When I say manifold, I mean intake manifold. My EJ22T came with the manifold, TB and fuel rails, minus injectors. I am taking a leap that I can use the manifold because both the EJ22T and the EJ20G are '92's. I know Morgie measured older EJ20 heads before, but I got the impression they were off of an Impreza EJ20. we'll see once I get the thing in house tommorow...

As for the coil on plugs, I am sure we can arrange a reasonable price... :twisted: you don't perchance still have that LSD sitting around do you?
1974 Porsche 914 Cam Am Limted Edition AKA the Bumble Bee
1973 Porsche 914 2.0 l -Suby swap pending
1968 Porsche 911t survivor 47k original miles
2000 2.5RS daily driver.
1999 2.5RS w/ 50+ extra whp
Suby Hai!

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Post by THAWA » Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:02 am

not trying to be rude or an ass or anything just want a lil clarification. You mentioned a distributor, did the ej20 come with those or did you just mean ignition coil?
Rio Red 90 Legacy LS AWD 174k
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Post by ciper » Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:11 am

I think he meant distribution of spark in the generic term. The ej20 he has uses 4 seperate coils that connect to each spark plug and he wants to use a centrally mounted coil with waste spark instead.

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Post by Matt Monson » Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:11 am

sorry, bad terminology. The EJ20G has coil on plug, I will be using the EJ22T coil.

And here's the big question for you electronics gurus. Someone on NASIOC just told me I can't use the EJ22T ECU because it is for a SOHC engine and the EJ20G is DOHC. He said the timing would be off. Any input from VRG or guys running EJ20G's?
1974 Porsche 914 Cam Am Limted Edition AKA the Bumble Bee
1973 Porsche 914 2.0 l -Suby swap pending
1968 Porsche 911t survivor 47k original miles
2000 2.5RS daily driver.
1999 2.5RS w/ 50+ extra whp
Suby Hai!

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Post by ciper » Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:15 am

Seems like the only part that would matter is if the cam sprocket marks match up in relation to the crank the same way as the ej22, something farirly easy to confirm just by taking it apart (marking the positions before hand).

Besides, remember someone is running a DOHC EJ25NA on an EJ22NA computer with just a simple rewire.

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Post by THAWA » Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:15 am

Okay thanks for the explaination.

wouldn't the timing issue not matter since the only thing the ecu monitors as far as heads and crank is the cam and crank sensors? Meaning aslong as your crank moves twice as much as the cams(orvice versa idont remember which it is) it shouldn't matter? Also don't people use ej25 heads on the ej22t with no electrical mods for the flow reasons?
Rio Red 90 Legacy LS AWD 174k
Liquid Silver 92 SVX LS-L 88k
[url=http://folding.amdmbpond.com/FoldingForOurFuture.html]Do you fold?[/url]

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Post by ciper » Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:17 am

We should clarify valve timing in relation to piston and electronic timing singles the ECU receives from the crank+cam.

Valve to piston timing obviously wont be a problem since this section of the engine is still intact.

Sure the EJ22T ECU spark timing is tuned for a different cam profile so it wont be optimum, but it should still work. It will only be a problem if the cam sprockets on the new heads have different "spoke" locations.

My only wonder, can someone who knows more about this explain if the the waste spark on the exhaust side with the modified cam profile be an issue in any way?
Last edited by ciper on Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by vrg3 » Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:19 am

The valvetrain has nothing to do with it. Your timing won't be exactly right just because your ECU's maps were engineered for the EJ22T. But it'll work.

Micum is running an EJ20G with his stock EJ22T ECU.
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Post by Matt Monson » Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:49 am

That's what I thought. It was Jaxx who made the remark. He's running an EJ20g in an Impreza, but went the TEC-II route. And he had remarked that Noah at cobb had tried and failed. I didn't see how it could be an issue of engine timing, but I totally see how it could be an issue of spark timing. Are the bigger injectors going to cause any issues? That was the other thing he remarked on. My knee jerk says no issue...
1974 Porsche 914 Cam Am Limted Edition AKA the Bumble Bee
1973 Porsche 914 2.0 l -Suby swap pending
1968 Porsche 911t survivor 47k original miles
2000 2.5RS daily driver.
1999 2.5RS w/ 50+ extra whp
Suby Hai!

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Post by vrg3 » Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:50 am

Yeah, the bigger injectors will be problematic. The ECU is calibrated for the stock injector size.

I think you should use the EJ22T fuel rails. Assuming you're also using the EJ22T MAF sensor, then you'll get more or less the correct fueling all the time.
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Post by Matt Monson » Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:55 am

vrg3 wrote:
I think you should use the EJ22T fuel rails. Assuming you're also using the EJ22T MAF sensor, then you'll get more or less the correct fueling all the time.
That's what I was thinking but am unsure if the injectors will fit? I also thought that maybe it would be a good idea to get an AFC to keep an eye on things.

I am also starting to wish I hadn't sold my custom turbo to Dizzy since that DP had an EGT bung as well. Having EGT's are helpful when tuning by hack and piggy back. Oh well, live and learn...
1974 Porsche 914 Cam Am Limted Edition AKA the Bumble Bee
1973 Porsche 914 2.0 l -Suby swap pending
1968 Porsche 911t survivor 47k original miles
2000 2.5RS daily driver.
1999 2.5RS w/ 50+ extra whp
Suby Hai!

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Post by vrg3 » Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:59 am

If you're using the EJ22T intake manifold, then the EJ22T fuel injectors and rails should fit, no?

I don't know if an AFC would actually end up being of any use...

Hey, I don't remember if you ever got back to me about the EJ20G ECU that I have -- do you want me to figure out if it can be adapted to run waste-spark ignition?
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Post by Matt Monson » Sat Mar 13, 2004 5:22 am

vrg3 wrote:If you're using the EJ22T intake manifold, then the EJ22T fuel injectors and rails should fit, no?

I don't know if an AFC would actually end up being of any use...

Hey, I don't remember if you ever got back to me about the EJ20G ECU that I have -- do you want me to figure out if it can be adapted to run waste-spark ignition?
I thought I mentioned it above, but i've got the EJ22T rails, with no injectors.

As for the ECU, if I used yours, why would I bother to switch to waste-spark ignition? I ws only going to go that route because I thought it would confuse the ECU less. I had forgotten about that ECU. I'll send you a pm and we can talk. Having that ECu would make it much more simpler, assuming that I can still use the USDM wiring harness. I don't recal what you ahd told me was the one real difference in their behavior. Maybe it was the spark?
1974 Porsche 914 Cam Am Limted Edition AKA the Bumble Bee
1973 Porsche 914 2.0 l -Suby swap pending
1968 Porsche 911t survivor 47k original miles
2000 2.5RS daily driver.
1999 2.5RS w/ 50+ extra whp
Suby Hai!

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Post by THAWA » Sat Mar 13, 2004 5:33 am

just out of curiousity, why are you using the 2.2 if you've already got a 2.0?
Rio Red 90 Legacy LS AWD 174k
Liquid Silver 92 SVX LS-L 88k
[url=http://folding.amdmbpond.com/FoldingForOurFuture.html]Do you fold?[/url]

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Post by Matt Monson » Sat Mar 13, 2004 5:36 am

THAWA wrote:just out of curiousity, why are you using the 2.2 if you've already got a 2.0?
Huh? are you talking about the ECU? VRG has the 2.0 ECU, not me...
1974 Porsche 914 Cam Am Limted Edition AKA the Bumble Bee
1973 Porsche 914 2.0 l -Suby swap pending
1968 Porsche 911t survivor 47k original miles
2000 2.5RS daily driver.
1999 2.5RS w/ 50+ extra whp
Suby Hai!

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Post by THAWA » Sat Mar 13, 2004 5:41 am

meant the engine, the ej20g opposed to the ej22g

just noticed that both closed deck engines end in g
Rio Red 90 Legacy LS AWD 174k
Liquid Silver 92 SVX LS-L 88k
[url=http://folding.amdmbpond.com/FoldingForOurFuture.html]Do you fold?[/url]

I'm on First and First. How can the same street intersect with itself? I must be at the nexus of the universe.

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Post by Matt Monson » Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:02 am

If you have read my previous posts in Morgie's and Ciper's threads about builds and engine/head compatibility, you have seen my long term plans for the EJ22. I still plan to have it fully built. I am currently dismantling it to send out the block, rods and pistons for cleanup and cyro treating. It will be overbored, and re-sleeved and outfitted with custom 9.0:1 pistons and use EJ20 JDM STi heads. But that is a ways off timewise, and I probably won't have that engine assembled and in hand for close to a year.

In the meantime, I had this BF dropped in my lap, and can't help but mod. I was seriously thinking about taking the EJ22T heads and pistons and putting them in/on the NA EJ22, and re-installing it as a turbo. But then I came across this EJ20G that someone is dumping from a failed project, and I knew exactly what to do. I knew that I could put this engine into my new Legacy and do a bunch of learn by doing. And if I decide I don't want this particular BF to be the repository of my built EJ22, then I can sell it off. I know that someone will be happy to buy a a turbo legacy wagon with a 5 spd for a couple of thousand dollars. And if I decide it is a keeper, an LSD, and rear disc brakes, and a ton of other conversions will happen down the road. But for now, my immediate goal is to get this EJ20G in that car and running by the time my Cobb heads are finsihed in 45-60 days. That way I will have something to drive while I put those into my RS...
1974 Porsche 914 Cam Am Limted Edition AKA the Bumble Bee
1973 Porsche 914 2.0 l -Suby swap pending
1968 Porsche 911t survivor 47k original miles
2000 2.5RS daily driver.
1999 2.5RS w/ 50+ extra whp
Suby Hai!

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Post by THAWA » Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:14 am

awesome, I had read those threads, but was still just wondering. At anyrate keep us posted.
Rio Red 90 Legacy LS AWD 174k
Liquid Silver 92 SVX LS-L 88k
[url=http://folding.amdmbpond.com/FoldingForOurFuture.html]Do you fold?[/url]

I'm on First and First. How can the same street intersect with itself? I must be at the nexus of the universe.

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Post by vrg3 » Sat Mar 13, 2004 5:34 pm

Assuming the EJ20 has bigger injectors than the EJ22 (I don't know whether or not this is the case), the EJ22T ECU will run rich with the EJ20 injectors.

If you were to use a proper EJ20 ECU there's no good reason to switch to waste spark. Yes, the one significant difference between the EJ22T and EJ20T ECU is the ignition. As far as I can tell, everything else is actually the same aside from the different MAF sensor (the EJ20 ECU is a JECS unit and so uses the JECS sensor).

I don't know if you have the EJ20 4-channel ignitor or not... if you don't, I don't see any reason you can't just use two 2-channel ignitors instead. You would connect two of the coils to your stock ignitor, and connect the other two to the second ignitor which you would have to wire into the ECU (you'd add 2 wires to the ECU harness connection and splice the rest in elsewhere).
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Post by Jaxx » Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:16 pm

ej20G (brown top) are 425cc (some one find me 550's and ill trade them)
ej22t (purple?dunno) 390cc
i will be intersted to see how the timing turns out ..

i used alot of creative vaccume line routing .. as some were missing
and elboe right befor the turbo is differnt due to differnt bov hose (used a LT elboe)

an emanage might do very well .. timing and fuel correction in one box ..
noah had asperations of using a unichip. .

havn't talked to him in a while..
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Post by Matt Monson » Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:50 am

Well,
I don't know that I am going to have to find out if it works or not. I am picking up an early WRX ECu from VRG3. He has shown me the pinouts of both cars (the WRX and the Legacy RS) and they are identical save the AWIC, which the WRX did not have. The other thing is one the engine arrive it turned out to have a very nearly complete engine harness, so I do not need to worry about using the EJ22T harness, rewiring it and changing manifolds or injectors or ignition. I am just going to drop it, switch the wires that need to go into the chassis harness and plug the thing in. It will be a few weeks still until I start this operation, but I will let you all know how it progresses...
1974 Porsche 914 Cam Am Limted Edition AKA the Bumble Bee
1973 Porsche 914 2.0 l -Suby swap pending
1968 Porsche 911t survivor 47k original miles
2000 2.5RS daily driver.
1999 2.5RS w/ 50+ extra whp
Suby Hai!

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Post by Do It Sidewayz » Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:08 am

Dude.. we just finished this conversion. we dropped an EJ20G into a 1991 Legacy Turbo


Here's what we learned.

the EJ22T intake manifold WILL NOT bolt up to the ej20G block. The inlet runners from the EJ20G are HUGE compared to the EJ22 and bigger in all respects.

We switched over the EJ22 wiring harness onto the EJ20 Motor. The only wires that needed extending were the Idle Control Valve Wires, and Water Temp sensor wires i believe (can remember)

We have the EJ20 harness and Computer, but it was hacked kinda bad.

Right now it's running on the EJ22 computer. It was direct plug and play.

If you have the ej20G wiring harness diagrams. Please send them to me!!!

i'm at thefastone121@hotmail.com

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Post by vrg3 » Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:29 pm

Do It Sidewayz, I have this EJ20G wiring information:

Scan from 92 Liberty RS FSM:

http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~v/pics ... rs_ecu.png

Scans from 94 WRX FSM:

http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~v/pics/94_wrx_ecu.pdf
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