Can we determine the limit of efficiency for the AWIC?

NuwanD · Post by **NuwanD** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:47 am

If you are looking for numbers relating to efficiency i think the two best options are inlet vs outlet temperatures and pressure drop, the latter being the most pertinant.

If you are not using any sort of refrigerant system you will not be able to cool the intake charge below ambient temperature, the best you can do is cool the intake charge to ambient temperature and that is 100% efficiency which is basically impossible.

LegacyT · Post by **LegacyT** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:05 pm

LegacyT: Dont try to sound smart and change the discussion around. When the gas is compressed the rise in temperature is drained off by the radiator in the front to outside air

ya so, your repating what I already said. Thats only one small step in the a/c process. The core principal is the evaporation of that refrigerant, that IS what causes the major temp drop. Relax dude, its ok to learn.

Thank you NuwanD.

Mark,

puckaveli · Post by **puckaveli** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:17 pm

LegacyT wrote: Relax dude, its ok to learn.

Thank you NuwanD.

Mark,

The formula for IC efficiency is eff = (Tout - Tin) / (Tout - Ta)

So if you can get the intake charge before the throttle body lower than ambient temp then you have gone over 100% effciency. Air-air IC cannot do this water to air IC can. I hope you learned something.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:05 pm

Mark - The core principles are the evaporation and the condensation. In order for it to be able to evaporate when it gets to the evaporator core it needs to be liquid. It's a heat pump, not a source of coldness!

NuwanD · Post by **NuwanD** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:29 pm

Okey dokey, can someone explain to me how you can go over 100% efficiency in a AWIC without using refrigerant? With refrigerant it is easily possible to exceed 100% (as per the formula) in both AWIC and AAIC systems.

I'm assuming you are relying on the fact that the AWIC can store a "cool charge" but note that this cannot be any cooler than 100% ambient. Once the coolant temp and ambient temp equalize the ambient air running through the front mounted heat exchanger has no effect on the equal temp coolant.

Just want to see what info i'm missing out on here

Post by **Legacy777** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:01 pm

Personally......I think the over 100% efficiency thing is really determined on where you measure your temps. If it's simply at the inlet and oulet.....sure you can go over 100% with an intercooler that has components outside of that particular system With AWIC's you're not looking at the entire system when you measure those temps.

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:41 pm

Okay, lets get back on the original topic!!!

I wanted to find the efficiency of the stock legacy AWIC if you had an infinite supply of 75 degree water.

NuwanD: If you size the system correctly for your use you wont run out of cool charge!

LegacyT: Dont take offense, I still like you!

rsstiboy · Post by **rsstiboy** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:59 pm

i answered your question on the first page of this thread............

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:37 pm

I didnt like your answer. It doesnt take into consideration the reduced temperature of turbo outlet air if you used an apropriately sized turbo and the cooling fluid temperature and reserve.

I feel you made the wrong decision with going to a front mount.

NuwanD · Post by **NuwanD** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:06 am

ciper wrote:NuwanD: If you size the system correctly for your use you wont run out of cool charge!

oh i agree with you on that, just commenting about the 100% efficiency thingy

As i said before i think one of the better ways at looking at intercooler efficiency is to look at the pressure drop across the intercooler. For instance my boost reading dropped from the stock 8.7psi to about 4psi after i installed my wrx intercooler. Possibly trying the a similar test on the AWIC you mentioned would give you a number to compare from. However I have no idea what the actual efficiency rating is for my i/c.

Maybe if anyone else knows what their stock boost reading dropped to after installing their i/c we could set up some sort of baseline for everything.

We'd have to use systems running 8.7psi as well as the stock turbo for this to work properly.

Legacytuner · Post by **Legacytuner** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:05 am

Here's a thought dont use water at all. i thought of this last night what if you just sprayed co2 into the water inlet of the i/c? i think it would be really easy to do and it would be like the arctic in there, super cold air temps, good idea or bad idea? i think im gonna try it

rsstiboy · Post by **rsstiboy** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:01 pm

ciper wrote:I feel you made the wrong decision with going to a front mount.

when your running 19psi on a TD05 and making as much power as I am, you'll see otherwise. it was a marked improvement, the little water/air couldn't cut it.

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:35 pm

Your still wrong though.

If you are making that much power then you said it yourself

"the little water/air"
You needed a larger heat exhanger for the intake or the outside air.

Ill use an analogy. Your using 16's inch wheels with all seasons and cant get enough traction. So you switch to 17's with Z rated summer tires and proceed to tell us that 17 inch wheels are better.

rsstiboy · Post by **rsstiboy** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 9:49 am

you've got no idea ciper, the std intercooler heats up too quick, no matter how much you've increased the capacity of the system, or if you've increased the flow of the pump, its impossible to get a water/air system to support 400hp at the motor. 350 maybe.... but it'll be at its limit. without changing the size of the cooler itself and increasing the pump and front heat exchanger, it is cheaper to go to a FMIC, and a FMIC will work better. tests have been done by MRT here in australia, why do you think the WRC cars use FMIC's?

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:26 pm

Side stepping the issue again I see. If you would actually read my posts instead of coming across as some type of authority you would see that I said

"You needed a larger heat exhanger for the intake or the outside air"

The WRC cars also use 2.0 liter engines/rally tires and stripped interiors. Should I use them too? Its a different application.

NuwanD · Post by **NuwanD** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:53 pm

ciper wrote:Its a different application.

exactly.... to each his own, for "rsstiboy" the fmic fulfills his needs particular needs, ie boost/power and price etc...

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:57 pm

The topic of the thread was "Can we determine the limit of efficiency for the AWIC?"

So he shouldnt come and screw my thread up.

rsstiboy · Post by **rsstiboy** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:10 pm

rsstiboy wrote: its impossible to get a water/air system to support 400hp at the motor. 350 maybe.... but it'll be at its limit. without changing the size of the cooler itself and increasing the pump and front heat exchanger, it is cheaper to go to a FMIC, and a FMIC will work better. tests have been done by MRT here in australia, why do you think the WRC cars use FMIC's?

i'm providing information from someone that has actually used one ciper, you think you know everything, let me tell you you don't. you don't see me in threads I know nothing about.

rsstiboy · Post by **rsstiboy** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:22 pm

ciper wrote:The topic of the thread was "Can we determine the limit of efficiency for the AWIC?"

So he shouldnt come and screw my thread up.

want a tissue?

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:38 pm

rsstiboy: You dont need to tell me I dont know everything, if I did I never would have started the thread. The biggest reason I started this thread is that your answers are very lacking and you like to give numvers without proof.

All I see you doing is putting people down, we are discussing air to water setups and you continue to come in and tell everyone they suck.

You said "19psi on a TD05 and making as much power as I am"
Well I dont think your making as much power as you could especially considering your recent thread in the MISC forum.
Most likely your turbo is mis sized and your tuning isnt very good, so you have to overcompensate with the large FMIC just to get the car working properly.

And yeah, I would like a tissue to wipe my hands after I stick a screw driver into your eye.

NuwanD · Post by **NuwanD** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:48 am

I feel you made the wrong decision with going to a front mount.

looks like you made this thread go off topic, many of us have responded to your original thread topic but you fail to even comment on our suggestions... if you want to keep this thread on your topic start doing that.

As i said before i think one of the better ways at looking at intercooler efficiency is to look at the pressure drop across the intercooler. For instance my boost reading dropped from the stock 8.7psi to about 4psi after i installed my wrx intercooler. Possibly trying the a similar test on the AWIC you mentioned would give you a number to compare from. However I have no idea what the actual efficiency rating is for my i/c.

Maybe if anyone else knows what their stock boost reading dropped to after installing their i/c we could set up some sort of baseline for everything. We'd have to use systems running 8.7psi as well as the stock turbo for this to work properly.

what do you think?

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 1:02 am

I will do the suggestions as posted, I need the engine to be installed before I can though.

AC system cooling the water is still speaking of air/water intercoolers so its not that far off.

rsstiboy · Post by **rsstiboy** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 2:48 am

ciper wrote:All I see you doing is putting people down, we are discussing air to water setups and you continue to come in and tell everyone they suck.

You said "19psi on a TD05 and making as much power as I am"
Well I dont think your making as much power as you could especially considering your recent thread in the MISC forum.
Most likely your turbo is mis sized and your tuning isnt very good, so you have to overcompensate with the large FMIC just to get the car working properly.

And yeah, I would like a tissue to wipe my hands after I stick a screw driver into your eye.

firstly, i don't say they suck, AIR/AIR top mounts suck with a std scoop, water/air is good but has limitations in size, fmic is best bang for buck.

secondly, if you actually read that post you would have realised that i did my 13.2 on a base map on my link ecu, it gets tuned on the 1st of april.

thirdly, should i consider that as a threat? or are you just a keyboard warrior? i obviously struck a nerve somewhere.

i dare say you wouldn't say a thing if you ever met me.

this whole thread is about intercooler efficiency limits, i have given them to you yet you refuse to believe them, why don't you just contact MRT rally in australia and have them tell you exactly what i've told you

someone lock this thread please.

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 2:52 am

If we can fix the problems of the water turning to steam (replacement fluid http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=15540 ), heat dissipation ( http://www.permacool.com/Catalog/Cat_page11.html ), right size pump (either jabsco 18510-0020 15 gpm with direct or 59500-0012 3.9 mag drive) and correct turbo (lower outlet temperatures) I feel the limit on the stock unit could be higher than the qouted 250-300 I see posted.

Im not a keyboard warrior. Thats just how I felt at the moment. Id still like to meet you and have a ride in your car. There are only two people on the board I have hard feelings towards and you arent one of them.

The nerve you struck is that I already know you have decided against air water and posted it in other threads and came to mine to say the same. If you give me temperature measurements or other data to show why you made the switch Id like it more.

And someone please dont lock the thread.

MY92 · Post by **MY92** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:04 am

I have found with my JDM car that even with another core mounted (two factory cores joined together).

The car would still lose a lot of power after about 5 laps at the local circuit. Top speed down the back straight went from 200 to about 175.

legacycentral bbs

A forum for 89-94 BC-BF(BJ) Legacy Owners and Fans

Can we determine the limit of efficiency for the AWIC?

CO2