Intercooler fluid

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 8:42 pm

Ive been trying to find a better alternative than water for the intercooler. I think I have found it, and the price isnt so bad.

http://www.paratherm.com/Paratherm-MR/M ... l%20Safety

195$ for 5 gallons

Now can you guys help me combine the data to compare it with water/coolant (with water wetter)? Ill post the small amount of information I have found.

Second page of this pdf http://www.paratherm.com/_engineering/MREngBul.pdf
has the capabilities of the fluid.

NuwanD · Post by **NuwanD** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:09 pm

seems kinda pricey for me, what is normally used in the system? only water or water/coolant?

You may want to look into something like "water wetter", it's a coolant additive that raises the thermal conductivity of the water. A few of my friends have been using it with great results, its made by redline... http://www.redlineoil.com/redlineoil/wwti.htm

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:24 pm

I know of water wetter. My original plan was to use 90% water and 10% water wetter. Id like to find something with better performance though.

magnux · Post by **magnux** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:20 am

Well, if you find something new.. it would make you a hero amongst the Watercooled PC Overclocking crowd. So far, water + water wetter is the best solution -- aside from phase change cooling, which obviously isn't applicable to a intercooler, but it works great for PC's.

I've tried a multitude of liquids, alcohol, etc.. and nothing has dissipated heat better than water + water wetter for me.

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:40 am

Thats usually becuase the overclocking crowd doesnt look to the industrial feild for help. Im fairly sure this fluid is a better choice, even considering the price.

Post by **Legacy777** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:08 pm

ciper.....I didn't read anything on that page that gives a heat transfer coefficient or heat capacity. Can you get any technical specs on this stuff?

nevermind.....I found where it is

Post by **Legacy777** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:11 pm

here's a nice graph of the main stuff.

If I have time I could try and find similar data for water, and with the wetter.

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:01 am

I have found two similar fluids, waiting for the pricing. Some of the stuff I have found is very expensive.

Here are a couple more Im looking into that I recently found

dowtherm HT at 25-650 degree F
DowthernG 20-680 degree F
http://www.dow.com/webapps/lit/litorder ... f&pdf=true

The dowtherm HT is better than the previous mention fluid all across the board If Im reading the specs right!
Only problem is that DOW only sells it in 55 gallon drums

, though if you do the math its only 30$ a gallon.

Found a similar chemical under the same family http://www.therminol.com/pages/bulletin ... nol_66.pdf
The dowtherm has a better specific heat and thermal conductivity over the temperature range

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:07 am

Holy shite! I found the best fluid EVER. Its infinitely better than anything and is currently being used as coolant.

Liquid Sodium.
One called "mp 208F" at 752 Deg F has specific heat of 0.306 and thermal conductivity of 41.1! yeah, 410 times better at conducting heat than the above fluids.

Imagine if you used that as engine coolant. The engine would be the exact same temperature everywhere and your heater would put out enough hot air to melt ice off the windsheild in seconds!

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:11 am

The only place I've ever heard of liquid sodium being used as a coolant was in nuclear reactors.

You have to get it pretty hot (read: around the temperatures you see when the nucleus of an atom splits) before sodium melts, and even then it's still ridiculously reactive.

Were you kidding?

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:13 am

The stuff I see is still liquid at at least 650 degrees... Perhaps its some type of alloy? Like sodium with potassium melts at 200 degrees http://pearl1.lanl.gov/periodic/elements/11.html

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:17 am

Oh. Hm, I guess I was thinking of something else... Maybe I was thinking of its boiling point.

So are you saying you weren't kidding?

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:18 am

Im not kidding. I can nearly gurantee that my intercooler will not contain water.

I bet Nico could use the above mentioned chemical hehe

Hell, if fucking mercury wasnt such a poison Id use it. Its so dense I wouldnt need a resovoir either.

Find me a good Gallium-indium alloy that I can purchase, I bet it has similar properties and its liquid at room temperature like mercury.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:24 am

What about air? How will you fill the system? What if a hose leaks or something? How will you seal the system? How will you keep it above its melting point? What if your car's in a frontal collision?

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:27 am

I want something that is liquid above say 40 degrees, but as a high conductivity.

If a hose breaks or Im in an accident then Ill have to add more fluid.

So far If I go exotic my choices are Gallium (melting point at 30°C), caesium (28°C) , and brome (-7°C).

75% Gallium 25% Indium mixed has a melting point of 60 degrees Fahrenheit, a little higher than I want.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:30 am

Having to add fluid isn't the issue -- liquid sodium is a dangerous substance. Depending where it is in your engine bay it can spontaneously ignite in air. I don't even want to imagine what it could do to the skin of a rescue worker.

I'm glad I'm far away from your car.

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:31 am

Lets talk about the other ones, sodium seems to be impossible.
Mercury is also impossible.

Can you help me find the conductivity of 75% Gallium 25% Indium? I wonder if it turning solid would be an issue, or would it melt slowly through the tubes as heat was added becuase of its really high conductivity?

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:47 am

Cool. :)

Can someone in the know explain something to me? Why does the specific heat and thermal conductivity of paratherm vary so much with temperature? I thought generally those numbers were pretty much constants for most materials.

As far as I know, Redline Water Wetter doesn't actually change thermal conducivity or specific heat significantly; it just reduces surface tension which allows the water to flow into tiny crevices and to flow around to make sure water vapor doesn't get trapped anywhere.

Edit: You edited your post while I was writing mine! :) I have no idea where to even start looking for information on such an alloy.

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:54 am

Well, gallium mirrors are a start.
Read this http://www.theodoregray.com/PeriodicTab ... ex.s7.html

" Galistan thermometer. which uses a patented eutectic alloy of gallium, indium, and tin, liquid down to below the freezing point of water"

Now I just need to find something similar that is cheap (like sodium)

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 5:57 am

Some engines use sodium filled valve stems for cooling.

You're talking about some toxic stuff.

Steve

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:57 am

The gallium-indium stuff isnt toxic.

I found this
Gallium
Specific heat: 0.37 J/gK
Thermal conductivity: 0.406 W/cmK

Indium
Specific heat: 0.23 J/gK
Thermal conductivity: 0.816 W/cmK

Both of those are 100's fold increase over the normal cooling fluids

Problem is that its so damn expensive.

Unless I can find a surplus block of it Im going back to synthetic thermal fluids.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... tegory=413

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:45 pm

how often would this fluid have to be replaced?

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:08 pm

If you mean gallium/sodium/mercury it should never need. Its so dense that any contaminates should "float" to the top.
But I cant find any cheap source for it

Ill ask how often the heat transfer fluid from those other companies need changed.

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:25 pm

is it corrosive in any way? Like would you have to worry about the intercooler, rad, lines, or waterpump rusting up or breaking down because of it?

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Intercooler fluid

Intercooler fluid